Patrick:
00:00:00 Ladies and gentlemen, it's not every podcast that I start off by saying thank you, but I think it's important for this episode because it struck me now as I'm sitting here in my close ... for people watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see that behind me is a curtain. I've got a curtain up in my closet, and it's important to recognize that you, even though you're by yourself, or you're at the gym, or you're in your car or you're taking a dump. Whatever it is you're doing at this very moment, keep it to yourself, but you are a part of a larger group. What I think is important to recognize now, especially in this particular episode where I think you're going to start to get the international feel of what's happening with this show, is you're part of a group.
Patrick:
00:00:40 There is a commitment and fervor in this group, which I've never seen before. I don't put myself into that group because I don't listen to the show, but you guys have an incredible tenacity, a level of commitment to take an hour of your life each week and to simply flush it down the toilet. I don't know how you guys do it, I don't know how you stay so committed but you do so thank you. It's something that you should be applauded for. Let's get into the episode.
Announcer:
00:01:07 Welcome to the Wandering DP podcast, where we focus on Leica photography, cinematography and life off set. Now, your host, Patrick O'Sullivan.
Patrick:
00:01:20 The podcast doth continue. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Wandering DP podcast. This is episode 132. 132 times we've done that stupid intro, and it never gets any better. On the show today, as I mentioned, we've got Colin Watkinson. You will know his stuff from series like The Handmaid's Tale, which he's got going on at the moment. He's got a series of Entourage. He's got episodes of that. He's got tons and tons of commercials and other stuff, which we're going to get into, and it's a very unique and interesting perspective on cinematography because yes, sometimes we'll talk to people that are just starting out. Sometimes we'll talk to Rupert Sanders. Sometimes we'll talk to I don't know. Sometimes you'll just hear me talking, which is the lowest of the low, but it's interesting to get those different levels.
Patrick:
00:02:06 I know we've got some people messaging, leaving messages on the hotline last week about they don't see how Rupert Sanders career relates to theirs. I think one of the good parts about this podcast is really the best time to learn from anyone is just after they've overcome whatever obstacle they've overcome, as you pass, and I think even Rupert mentioned this in his episode, in that it goes so far back that you just gloss over the difficult parts. You gloss over the parts that you didn't actually realize you didn't know and you learned from those, and you forgot you learned from those. Pretty soon, all that knowledge that you accumulated just becomes second nature and you just think that this is how it's always been. I think the benefit of the podcast and the benefit of a show is talking to a whole different range of individuals where they are in their career.
Patrick:
00:02:56 We got Colin at a very interesting time, having just finished up with Handmaid's Tale. He had changed his workflow for the show, so it was interesting to hear about how as things escalate and things get busier and busier and busier how the role of cinematographer changes and how it morphs, and how a director of photography really does define the role because there are so many moving parts and you have to manage things and manage people, and manage responsibilities differently than you would if you were just shooting a little tiny commercial. That is this week's episode, and for those people that you want to hear from more up and coming people, don't worry about that. We're going to have more episodes like that in the future, but for the moment, I think no matter where you are in your career, you're going to get something out of this interview with Colin. This is one of the one's. This is actually the first one.
Patrick:
00:03:43 Last week, we talked about the first part of the LA invasion that happened with the podcast. This is the very first in-person interview, so I sat face to face with Colin. He got to see my mug for an extended period of time in our little Airbnb turned studio. I hope that you enjoy the different style of conversation because sitting across from him was a little bit freaky at the start. You're like oh, who's this person asking me these questions, but I think the conversation was the better for it and I was happy that he decided to come down. We found a spot in between his incredibly busy schedule to arrange it and to make it happen. Hopefully you get a lot out of the interview.
Patrick:
00:04:23 Now, what else have we got going? The feedback from last week, I talked about people saying Rupert Sanders directing 170 million dollar feature film, what does that have to do with me? The idea of overcoming obstacles and the idea of managing and how people think that feature films really is the highest level, or now just longer form stuff. Everyone seems to want to get longer form stuff, but it's nice sometimes to hear from individuals who are doing it what are the pros and cons because in any situation, there's going to be things where you'd rather not do them, and you don't think about those until you actually get there. Interesting to hear different people's takes. We've touched on that.
Patrick:
00:05:00 This thing is on Instagram TV. If you're looking at me, sometimes you look sideways. I've uploaded the episodes on to Instagram TV. I have no idea if anyone actually watches this thing on Instagram TV, but the idea is vertical video. I just uploaded a different version where all you have to do is turn your phone. If you're too lazy to turn your phone, good for you. This is on Instagram TV. If you watch on Instagram TV, please let me know or I'll just stop uploading them because it's a complete waste of my time. On Patreon, for the Patreon supporters, this is your episode. This is what we get for supporting the show. We're moving the show across continents and sitting face to face with these people and trying to squeeze out all the information that we can and get something actionable that you guys can take away and use on your next project.
Patrick:
00:05:47 Thank you very much for making this all possible. Without you, I'd still be sitting here. There wouldn't be a curtain. That's a Patreon curtain. You'd probably see my clothes if it wasn't for that curtain, and it wouldn't be near as good. Thank you very much to the Patreon people. The thank you this week is just a live stream, as always. We're going to be setting it up for Thursday, 7:00 pm Pacific time. The live stream is this. Only you can tell me in real time how much you hate the sound of my voice, which is a little bit different than leaving a message. Speaking of which, the hotline is fucking up and going. The hotline, people have been drawn to it, and the problem is I ran across one small issue this week, which is the hotline is a paid feature. You have to pay for access to use this little device that you put on your website, and I didn't pay of course. I got the free version.
Patrick:
00:06:40 The free version limits you to 20 messages in a month, and we got that in two days. If I erased your message, it's probably for a few different reasons. Number one, it was boring. If your message is shitty, nobody wants to hear it. It got erased. That's not to say you're boring. I'm sure you're a fantastic person, but if your message sucked, I erased it. No, if you did try and leave a message and it said the thing was full, the inbox was full, I have gone through and downloaded and quickly erased them all. I have not erased any of your messages from existence, I've just downloaded them so now other people can leave messages. Feel free to hop on the hotline. Let me know where you're listening from and who you are, and the kind of stuff that you got going, and we're going to try and get it on the show, which is exactly what we're going to do today.
Patrick:
00:07:26 Patreon livestream happening. We talked about that. Get your projects in if you are a Patreon supporter, and start looking for those archival episodes that are coming up on Patreon if you're interested in going back and hearing the dog shit sound quality of 2014. Next week on the podcast is a breakdown episode. We are going to see the very last of our spokesman. Our spokesman series that we've been doing the last four weeks or whatever it is, we'll see the last and final day, which is, again, shooting inside a garage. If you want something shot inside a garage, half of it in the driveway and half of it in the garage, I'm not going to toot my own horn, but I'm your fucking man. I can shoot the shit out of a garage. I don't know if I can actually do it, I just do it quite a bit. That is next week on the podcast, a little breakdown episode. It's going to be interesting to see how this goes on YouTube.
Patrick:
00:08:16 That's it. Okay, the hotline. Shall we get into it? Ladies and gentlemen, I think this is where the international part of the episode will take over. Let's see. In my head, I'd cooked up this little person that listens to the show, who I'm talking to, but then again at Cine Gear, I got a different idea of the people that listen to the show, but I think this going to add a little something. Here we go.
Christian:
00:08:36 Hello. My name is Christian. I'm a photographer from Germany.
Patrick:
00:08:42 The Germans, ladies and gentlemen. This podcast has got a little bit of an audience there in Europe. Let's do this here. Christian, I think his name was.
Christian:
00:08:52 I would like to ask something about the differences between photographers and cinematographers.
Patrick:
00:08:57 Yep, the difference is cinematographers have skill. Photographers don't.
Christian:
00:09:03 I was just watching your video with natural light, and I was thinking that most photographers would try to light up the darker parts whereas cinematographers always put blacks everywhere.
Patrick:
00:09:17 This is true. This is very true. I don't know about the photography part, because I'm not a photographer, but I can tell you that cinematography a lot of the time is all about taking light away. The number one thing in the Patreon livestream that people give me shit about is mentioned neg fill all the time. All the time negg'ing things. It's just quicker and easier than lighting things up, so yes, I would agree.
Christian:
00:09:37 I was thinking why is that? Maybe you have a good idea?
Patrick:
00:09:42 I don't have a good idea, but I have one. Basically the question is why do photographers seem to light things up and why do cinematographers seem to take away light. There's a few different reasons in my head. Just first off would be that photographers have a lot more control because you only have a single image. You can do a lot more to the image later in Photoshop. You don't have to worry. It's much easier to do correction of images, to bring things down. If you expose to the right, as they say, and try and get as much information and light onto the sensor, then you can make those adjustments later. You have more control basically whereas a cinematographer, you won't see your work for six months and then someone else will color it, and if you give them all the information, they're going to do whatever it is they do with it.
Patrick:
00:10:26 Early on in the podcast episodes, that was one of the misconceptions that I had. How much freedom do you give the people down the line? How much freedom do you give to the director and to the colorist and to the editor, whoever is doing the post on your work, to manipulate it? What we found over the years, and this could be a process of evolution for all cinematographers as they get better with digital, as they get more accustomed to the workflow, they get burned a few times, is you're starting to see more and more people try and bake in as many "problems" or things that you can't come back from just in order to have a voice, in order to say this is how I want the image to look and I'm going to try and make it so that you can't really back it up from there. That's happening not only with cinematographers but directors as well, whose sometimes these projects will get taken away from.
Patrick:
00:11:18 You really want to make the thing look like you want to make it look and that's easier on longer form stuff because you have more input, but on commercials that is why I would say that they're constantly trying to bake in the look as much as you can and get it in-camera. You hear a lot of people say that. Try and get the look as close as possible in-camera so that they can't really do much. Whereas photography, with that added flexibility and the ease of it, it doesn't take a whole lot of time, you can do it with a very simple computer, Photoshop. You can be very quick about those things. I think that is probably the main reason why you see ... And also, your different display formats.
Patrick:
00:11:53 You've got the opportunity in the commercials or in film, the person is locked into the screen. They don't have to be taken away from something else, whereas if you're doing fashion photography, they're flicking through a magazine with 50,000 ads in it. You need that saturation. You need the contrast to say, "Hey, over here. Look at me, dipshit." You need that but with Cinematography, you can be a bit more subtle.
Christian:
00:12:20 The best I could come up with was that most photos need to be printed.
Patrick:
00:12:24 Wrong. No, that sounds good.
Christian:
00:12:27 Whereas video, it's a bit more easy to get away with the darker image, but I'm not sure. Maybe that's the reason.
Patrick:
00:12:37 Like I just said, that's probably one of them for sure in that where the print is going versus where the final format is going up. That's just the style now. The darker, more nuanced shoulder of the image, that look if you go back even before pre-Alexa, maybe in a David Fincher movie and even I'm thinking Fight Club, something like that where the toe of the image has been manipulated so much and there's so much nuance in there. You didn't really see a ton of that 20 years ago. This is something new as cinematography as a whole has gotten better and techniques have gotten better. Being able to manipulate that area of the image, people have gotten bolder because they can see what they're doing. They've had enough experience with the sensors, with the chips, that they know where the limit is and that's really where the experimentation has come in.
Patrick:
00:13:32 You look at some of the older stuff and you're like Jesus. Especially if you're a young kid who didn't grow up on that stuff. You look at some of the old stuff and you're like this looks like shit. You may be right, or you may be wrong, but for the time it probably looked groundbreaking, but now there's so much control and there's so much nuance and the techniques have gotten so good and the ability of what you can do later has gotten so interesting that the flaws are what sets you apart. You see people shooting film now because of the idea that it bakes this thing in there. There's something inherent in it, the mistakes can't be avoided are what make it interesting.
Christian:
00:14:09 I was hoping that you can give some advice for photographers to learn about this kind of stuff for motion. Okay, thanks.
Patrick:
00:14:20 Sweet. Thanks for the question. I think the advice would be now it's never been easier basically to get into cinematography in the sense that if you have the skills of recognizing an image, what you'd like in it, it's very easy to replicate. I think this has come up a few times whether it's in the Facebook group or questions beforehand. What makes a good cinematographer? Really, it's someone who's interesting. That's counterintuitive, but once you get to a certain level, everyone has the same technique and everyone has the same technical knowledge. What makes an interesting image is someone who has an interesting point of view. Photographers come to the entry level of cinematography already with a vision, at least a good photographer who has experience. That's often time why they'll go into becoming a director because there's so much more input from a commercial photographer that is necessary that that more lines up with directing.
Patrick:
00:15:23 If you're looking to get into cinematography, it's very easy. That vision is what you want to manipulate and what you want to build upon, and really, there's so much freedom and flexibility. It doesn't matter what camera that you're shooting with now. There's so much flexibility now. Just make it look nice. Make it look how you want it to look on the day. That's it. The difference between strobes and continuous light. Once you understand the concept of light, everything is easy. Once you understand the little tips and tricks that basically spell out the expectations like shooting into shadow, like keeping the background a little bit darker, like softening as you go in. Those things you pick up and learn along the way, but the advantage that you have being a photographer is that you have this thing that you like already. You put the eyepiece up to your eye with the camera or whatever you're shooting with.
Patrick:
00:16:15 You go to take a photo, you have your own little style and place where you're going to stand, and lens that you're going to choose. That is what you want to take into cinematography and push as far as you can. Then, the collaboration idea, if you're a photographer who's going to becoming a cinematographer, just remember that there's so many more people involved that what you won't be able to do as you build up and up and up is control everything. You'll have to learn to manage the people around you and to say how can I get the best out of the gaffer or the grip or the director? How can I talk or communicate with those people in order to get what I'd like to get across moving?
Patrick:
00:16:56 I'd say that's where you want to focus your energy if you're a photographer coming up, but that's for the question. Okay, let's go into the next one. Here we go.
Mamude:
00:17:04 Hi. My name is [Mamude 00:17:06]. I'm a film student doing my master's degree right now.
Patrick:
00:17:09 Mamude, my man, doing the study thing. Okay, I like it. Getting a master's.
Mamude:
00:17:17... in Los Angeles.
Patrick:
00:17:19 LA. Lala land.
Mamude:
00:17:22 I'm starting to learn the basics of cinematography right now. I've been eager to learn more about it and going deep and deeper in it. I've started to listening to your podcast recently and I like the way how you break it down.
Patrick:
00:17:45 I appreciate that, Mamude. The way I break it down is just the way that I talk. There's no particular technique to it, but I appreciate that you're listening.
Mamude:
00:17:53 ... and show us all the details that you do in your shots. It has been very beneficial for me.
Patrick:
00:17:59 My pleasure.
Mamude:
00:18:00 My question is what would you recommend as a basic kit for lighting that I can invest in so I can start to use it in my career that'll be good enough for the basics?
Patrick:
00:18:16 Mamude, good question. You've never come in at an easier time, but the thing is I guess you have to identify, and we've answered this question a few different times, what you have to identify is what you want to be doing, what level of project you want to be working on. The idea of buying stuff that you're going to use on a commercial, if you're actually thinking about shooting commercials, the chances of you ever bringing on your own lights unless they're very small, you have to be of a certain level to do that even. You're going to have teams of people. People that are going to be helping you, going to be moving stuff around, so you wouldn't want to go too heavy basically is what I'm saying in the lighting gear department because there's people whose whole existence relies upon getting lighting gear that's right for the job.
Patrick:
00:19:01 Then, as you move up, you want more specific instruments. There are a few different things when you're starting out. If you're thinking about single person adventures that you're going to be on and shooting, or what do they call it? One-man band sort of jobs where smaller is going to be better. LED is obviously going to be a much easier choice, less heat, less bulk. We can talk about that. The thing is you've got so many choices now like I was saying at Cine Gear. Every other company produces some sort of LED mats, but then you have to decide. Okay, you're definitely going to want some kind of mat, I would imagine. Mats are [diversital 00:19:41]. You can use them in every set up. You can use them on no matter what budget project that you're working on. There's always going to be a need for mats.
Patrick:
00:19:47 If you're thinking about okay, I want to get something that I can use for the next five years on possible scalable commercial things, that's when the price of these things start to increase. You can get some no name Chinese brand LED mat, and you can use it for your own personal projects, but as you start to move up, those things become less usable not because the light is no good, but because no one else is used to using it. If you palm that off to a gaffer, or you palm off to a best boy, or whoever is now rigging the lights and they've never seen the thing before, you're going to show up to set, and they're going to be like, “What the fuck is this thing? This is not the standard.”, which is why the standards are so expensive because they're made a certain way to a specific set.
Patrick:
00:20:29 Everyone knows them. Everyone on the crew gets used to them. It's like the LiteGear stuff, LiteMat's, like it or not, they are the mat of the working world. If you're interested in what the working world is using, and you want to get familiar with that, then I would go with some sort of LED mat, like a LiteMat from LiteGear. That would be the number one choice. Then, something a little bit cheaper that I use here, that I never would have purchased. I never would have thought would have been any good is the Aputure stuff. I've got an Aputure light right here through a light dome. It looks cool. It looks nice. It's super small. It's got crazy amounts of punch. This is 14%. 14%, and I'm at 640 ISO at T4. It's through two pieces of diffusion to get to my face, so it's a lot of level packed into this little tiny LED.
Patrick:
00:21:25 It doesn't make any noise. It's not very bulky. It's daylight balanced. Something like that, or a 300 which is even more, a little tiny Aputure set would be cheap, easy to use and it seems robust enough. I would say something like that where you need a little bit of punch, you need a little light mat, and then I would just accumulate a shit load ... I've talked about 4x4 floppies on the show before. 4X4 floppies are great, but they're fucking hard to fit in your car. Everybody that I've told to buy one has a hard time because you can't fit it in your car. A normal car is not going to be able to carry a 4 by floppy. What you can do instead of that is just get a bunch of blacks that you can pin up different places. Get a bunch of bed sheet that you can hang different places, and use diffusion, and really that's it. By the time you scale that up to larger and larger things, you're not going to be using your own stuff.
Patrick:
00:22:10 I would say some sort of light mat. If you're interested in only using it yourself, get some off brand thing. If you're interested in having other people use it, along the lines the LiteGear stuff really is industry standard, and then if you want something with a little bit more punch, I don't really see more bang for the buck than the Aputure stuff, but I'm not really in that world. That's where I would be going. Once you get there, it's like you get anymore than two or three lights when you accumulate, a lot of people will get Quasar tubes. The danger of course is that you're going to put them in the shot, and then it's going to look like everybody else's stuff. They are nice. Sy Turnbull, when we had him on the show, he was really using ... They weren't Quasars, but little tubes that looked industrial. That was for a purpose rather than just chucking them in the back of a scene because they look cool. It ends up looking like everybody else's shit.
Patrick:
00:22:59 That's where I would say start. Start with a little bit of punch, something cheap, LED, and then a mat would be the easiest thing. Then, blacks and whites. Let's not get into the race war here, ladies and gentlemen. Okay, thank you for that question, Mamude. Was that it?
Mamude:
00:23:17 From your experience, thank you so much.
Patrick:
00:23:18 My pleasure. Hopefully that answers the question. Thank you for coming in and calling on the hotline. So far, we've got Germany, we've got Los Angeles. Let's go to the last and final one here.
Virgil:
00:23:27 Hi, Patrick. Here's Virgil-
Patrick:
00:23:29 Virgil, what's happening? Virgil.
Virgil:
00:23:31 I'm calling from Berlin. First, thanks for your hard work and all the knowledge and tips that you are sharing.
Patrick:
00:23:36 I appreciate it. I appreciate the kind words, Virgil. Thank you very much for sending in the hotline. What's the question?
Virgil:
00:23:41 I wanted to ask you in a day exterior overcast situation, what will be your lighting [inaudible 00:23:47] on a small budget scale and on a big budget one?
Patrick:
00:23:51 Okay. For day overcast, I guess it depends on what you're calling big budget. If you're shooting some sort of Marvel feature, it's going to be a lot different in the style of look that you're going for, but normal everyday commercials that I would be working on say would be three in the lighting, two in the grip. That's where I'll for that. Low budget stuff, easiest. Easiest thing to do is shoot day exterior stuff, easiest to get an image that doesn't look like complete shit in the sense that there's not much contrast to deal with. You don't have to fight a lot of things with overcast exterior. Then again, it is hard to get shape. The only way you're going to get shape is by taking light away on a low budget because you're not going to have a generator, you're not going to have any 18k's that will be able to overpower what's there. Even on the darkest of overcast days, it's going to be really hard to overpower anything with a LED light small enough that's going to be cheap enough to be on some low budget project.
Patrick:
00:24:47 I would say the lights you can forget about. What then comes into play is how much negative fill you can put up, and that comes down to the team that you have and the way that you're going to rig the blacks. A lot of the time, if it's just 12x12, like the reverse side of an Ultra Bounce, that's fairly cheap. In terms of gear, there's nothing cheaper than day overcast exterior if you're not going to use lights because then you're only shaping. I would be having as many blacks as you can fit in whatever truck you're moving around, and then use those to take away as much light as humanely possible. That is going to be the real challenge is fighting for that contrast and fighting the flatness basically. From a low budget perspective, that's it. As many blacks as you can get and that's it. Then you have to just direct yourself towards the light. For the big budget stuff, generally here at least, in Australia, when working you get the whole truck every time you get a gaffer so you don't have to nitpick little tiny items and say, "Okay, I want this. I want this. I want this." It just comes out, but really the only thing that comes out of the trucks on overcast days are the giant lights, and that's if you want to match something that you shot before. If you don't want to match something that you shot before, and say you just want a little edge, you're still going to bring out the biggest lights. Those would be your 18k's or your M9's. Something like that would be the go-to package, but even if you have those big lights, you still have to use the blacks to create the contrast. Even that amount of light, there's just too much coming out of the sky, the overhead soft box effect of an overcast sky.
Patrick:
00:26:34 There's so much fill that's happening, so much ambient that's happening that even those lights are going to have a hard time creating the contrast by themselves. You're going to have to use the neg fill anyway. It'll just get bigger. The bigger you can get it, the more control you can have. The smaller it gets, the less control you have. As you move in, obviously it gets easier and easier as the shots get tighter and tighter, which we've seen multiple times on the podcast. I wouldn't say there's much of a difference, and even on those bigger budget projects, bringing out the lights would be really, really rare. It would probably be a situation where you're matching something that was in sunlight. You'd be then trying to light to that, but for overcast days, you couldn't really pick a smaller package in terms of equipment and in terms of the price of the equipment.
Patrick:
00:27:21 It's just a bunch of frames. The problem with the frames is that if it's overcast and there's wind, if it's overcast and there's weather, you need a lot of people and a lot of hands to deal with the frames because moving a 12x12 frame, even a 6x6 frame, you need two people. Then, you can only move one at a time, and then you got to place the thing. You got to put the sandbags on there and blah ble bah, hee bee dee hee. It becomes a bit of a pain in the ass, so I would say that yeah, fabrics and textiles would be your friend in that case. I appreciate the call, and that's where we're going to end it for the hotline. If you called in and you didn't get your message on, I've got them backed up. They will be on the show no doubt unless they're terrible questions. If you want to send in other questions or topics, maybe we want to get something else on the show, go ahead and do that. Call up the hotline. You can see it on the show notes page. WanderingDP.com/Episode132 is where you'll see that little button for the hotline. You can just leave a message and yeah, we'll try and get you on the show. Okay, before we get into the interview with Colin Watkinson, we have ladies and gentlemen, you think you know what I'm going to say right now. You think I'm going to mention the MusicBed. You think I'm going to do the mouth trumpet and (singing) the MusicBed. You think I'm going to mention the new website with the include/exclude. Well, I'll tell you what. You don't know me. You do not know me because I'm not going to say that. In fact, we've got new copy, ladies and gentlemen. New copy from the MusicBed. The Film + Music Conference 2018 edition is here. It is going to be held in Fort Worth, Texas September 28th and 29th, two days of all out fun in the sun.
Patrick:
00:29:13 It's the Film + Music Conference bringing top creatives and filmmakers together for two days of inspiration, education and new connections. I think, I could be mistaken, and Music is probably going to be pissed is I get this wrong, but I think this is the second iteration of this event. I know that last year's was a big success. Tickets to this event are $599 but you can get 10% off with the code WanderingDP. You can find more information at Film+Music.Com. This is the coming together ... MusicBed, I think they have a sister company, FilmSupply. Or, maybe it's a brother. I don't know. It's a non-binary, gender neutral company that is associated with MusicBed. They're putting on this fantastic conference. I know that it got rave reviews last year, and I was so close to getting there last year but I didn't make it. $599 for the ticket. You get 10% off, Wandering DP. I know it's going to be fun this year, and I'm excited for it.
Patrick:
00:30:13 We've got some speakers. There's breakout groups. There's keynotes. This year, Robert Legato is a speaker. He's an award-winning VFX supervisor who reinvented the film industry when he introduced virtual cinematography and applied it to legendary films like Titanic, Apollo 13, Hugo, The Jungle Book and many more. Through his work, he's collaborated with some of the most respected names in the film industry, Martin Scorsese, James Cameron, Ron Howard and Robert Zemeckis. He's going to be there giving some sort of talk, some sort of speech. There's Franklin Leonard, who is the founder of the Black List, the yearly publication highlighting Hollywood's most popular un-produced screenplays. Basically, films that you're never going to work. The Black List scripts have earned 250 Academy Award nominations and 50 wins. Franklin has worked in development at Universal Pictures and production companies of Will Smith, Sydney Pollack and Anthony I can't pronounce your last name Minghella, Leonardo DiCaprio and John Goldwyn. People like that are going to be here, and there's going to be more speakers.
Patrick:
00:31:20 You can hear about those speakers in the second part of this advertisement after our talk with Colin Watkinson. That is the MusicBed. Speaking of which, this is not part of the advertisement for MusicBed because we already talked about their website. We talked about this little conference that's happening. You can find out more information at Film+Music.com, but these conferences, a lot of the time when you're starting out and you're like I don't understand, I don't see the benefit of going to these conferences to hear these people talk. Well, the talking is great, and you're going to hear some interesting stuff from people like Robert and from Franklin. I have no doubt you're going to pull away valuable information from those, but really it's about the conversations that happen in between there because the people that will go to these things are people at your level, or just above your level, or just below your level that you're going to want to communicate with.
Patrick:
00:32:07 I know tons and tons of people that will go to these types of conferences where it's maybe a little bit more niche than something like NAB or Cine Gear because they allow you an opportunity to converse with people outside of the classes, outside of the breakout events, outside of the keynote speaking. That is where, I think, the real value in going to something like this is. You get to meet up with the community and see people face to face and form relationships. We've talked about multiple times on this show. If you see someone face to face, you immediately have some much more clout in that person's mind if you're not a complete dip shit. If you're not a douche bag, they will like you more than someone that they've never met before online. If a job comes up, maybe you want to say I want to get into doing this or doing that, you have the opportunity to ... Sell yourself sounds bad, but it's not that. It's more just forming relationships. This is where these things start.
Patrick:
00:33:00 I know a lot of really talented people who were at last year's, and they made some great connections and people got jobs from those. Not only are you going to get education from the people who are speaking, but it's also an opportunity to network, and not in some slimy, sleazy cocktail-y way but in a real way of people who have the same interest as you. Lots of good things to come from a conference like the Film + Music Conference in Fort Worth, Texas September 28th and 29th. Okay, that's going to do it for the advertisements. Thank you very much, MusicBed. We are going to get into this week's featured guest, cinematographer, Colin Watkinson. Let's do it.
Patrick:
00:33:38 You're from Liverpool. You live in LA now?
Colin Watkinson:
00:33:42 Yes, I do.
Patrick:
00:33:42 How long have you been out here?
Colin Watkinson:
00:33:43 I've been in LA for 10 years now.
Patrick:
00:33:47 Work brought you out here?
Colin Watkinson:
00:33:50 we just fancied a change of scenery. I was working in London. I'd been in London since I was 18, and the commercial industry which I spent a lot of time in was changing. I work with a lot of US agencies, and I just enjoyed being out here. I enjoyed working out here. I enjoyed working with Americans. Something happened in my life that made you realize that sometimes you just have to go for it, and we did. We moved over. It's working so far.
Patrick:
00:34:23 Was it something where you had already been out here a few times and had connections so that you hit the ground running once you come out? Or, is it you had to start all over again?
Colin Watkinson:
00:34:30 I think I was fairly naïve. I thought I could maker it quicker than I could. It was a great challenge once we got out here. I had an agent, and she told me that if I wanted to make it work in the US, I had to be here so I came out. I did a year commuting to try and get it together, and I got the show, Entourage, which sealed everything, got me enough union hours to have the medical, the security that I needed for the family to come out.
Patrick:
00:35:02 Was that kind of the plan to move into longer form stuff when you came here? Were you already doing that back in England? How was the progress going?
Colin Watkinson:
00:35:09 I always wanted to get into longer form. It was hard. I did a film in 2004-2006. I was trying to use that as leverage to get more long form. It was working, and then that new Entourage came along, and that was great. You just each step step by step constantly. You move forward.
Patrick:
00:35:34 If you look back now on your agent saying you really had to be here to give it a go, have you found that to be the case?
Colin Watkinson:
00:35:42 She was totally right.
Patrick:
00:35:43 Yeah? In the sense that you just need to be in those circles?
Colin Watkinson:
00:35:46 You need to be in the circles yeah. I thought I could do it from London, and some people do but I think you have to be a bit of a superstar to be able to do it.
Patrick:
00:35:55 What about the commercials from there? You had already worked with so many people out here that it didn't take long to establish those connections?
Colin Watkinson:
00:36:01 It took a while. Again, I didn't realize how much things would change when I came over here. I still thought I would work back in Europe, and that stopped instantly. It was like a rebuild and I enjoyed it. I learned a lot about myself, about my work. Some of it good, some of it bad. I meandered a little bit, I went some directions like finding things out about my work ... I don't want to be here. I don't want to do that. I want to do this type of work, or this style. It was a few years. It's been an interesting journey.
Patrick:
00:36:46 We've had a few different cinematographers on the show that have said there's pluses and minuses to making that mid-career location change, but one of the advantages can be that you're going into a place that isn't familiar with your work, and for a small window of time, you become the new person that people haven't seen before. Did you experience the positive aspects of that at all?
Colin Watkinson:
00:37:13 Yes, I did. There was definitely a flurry at the start. Then, the interesting part was I think I drifted a little bit into changing my style. I think I lost myself a little bit about what my style was. It was like a meld of European and US style, and I think it was a bit of a mess to be honest. I took course correct for that and make it more defined. I'm not that type of DP and I'm not that type of DP anymore. I guess it's created an identity, which I like.
Patrick:
00:37:53 Did you have a specific thing? I mean, you mentioned that you wanted to get into longer form stuff and that was part of the move, but did you go into it with a practical plan for that to happen or was it just about taking commercials and taking things in between and seeing what came next?
Colin Watkinson:
00:38:08 Yeah, just to keep working, keep shooting, keep learning and having the agents try and find possibilities to do long form. If I look back, maybe I should have been more active. I still don't know what I would have done, what circles to move in to find the longer forms. It's all about connections. I found that out through various types of ... I've moved agents a few times now, and it's all about connections.
Patrick:
00:38:37 Do you find that now that you've had this experience and you've been here for a while now, and you feel more comfortable, do you find that work is still coming in the same way as it was before in the sense that is it still based on personal relationships or do you find now as you grow more things come from the outside?
Colin Watkinson:
00:38:56 More things are coming from my work being out there, which that was always an aim. It's still connections, though. You meet people and they introduce you to somebody else.
Patrick:
00:39:10 As the series work grows and gets out there, do you still actively think about things like I don't want to do that because it'll take me away from commercials for an extended period of time, or doing commercials will take me out of something? Do you still think of it like that or is it just a project by project basis?
Colin Watkinson:
00:39:29 Most things are project by project. I'm after trying to tell good stories. I've had a great time in commercials but I'm trying to move on. It's still there, it's still great, but I'm definitely more interested in telling stories and moving the visuals forward in that sort of sense.
Patrick:
00:39:49 Has your process changed as you shift over from commercials, because a lot of time in commercials, you'll have significantly less pre-production time and that will allow you to not place as much importance on some thing as you would on a longer form series? Does it change your approach in number one, the crafting of the look? Now that you have more time, do you approach things ... Not more time in a sense of on set, but more time in preparation.
Colin Watkinson:
00:40:15 I've always tried to have some sort of plan. Sometimes the plan needs a bit more work than others, so I don't think I've changed in that respect. Long form requires more planning just in terms of on a day to day basis. Even creatively, it's like how are we going to approach this scene? How are we going to do this? Anyway, every day, every scene I do it's like shooting a commercial. Every story has to be told, and the work has to be done. When you don't do the work, I'm very aware of it and I feel embarrassed. I get annoyed at myself in not having done the work and then strive next time to fix that.
Patrick:
00:41:06 Are you someone that enjoys the preparation process?
Colin Watkinson:
00:41:09 Not particularly.
Patrick:
00:41:10 No?
Colin Watkinson:
00:41:10 I much prefer the shooting process, but I'm getting better at it. I'm starting to learn to enjoy and starting to see the benefits of good solid prep.
Patrick:
00:41:27 By getting better at it, does that mean that you can see how the translation from the work in prep gets put into the image?
Colin Watkinson:
00:41:34 Yes, and how the story's told how we want to tell it rather than being forced. The more prepared you are when you go in on the day and things change, and they do, I find it likely for me that I'll come up with something that's not maybe as good or better, but something I'll be proud of, that's like okay, that works rather than flailing.
Patrick:
00:42:07 Uncontrollable flailing is never good.
Colin Watkinson:
00:42:09 Yes. Never good.
Patrick:
00:42:15 Is it because of something that you're doing now that you find that that's get better, or is it just the experience? Do you now collect references and share them with a director? What's the operation for actually finding that looking and getting prepared?
Colin Watkinson:
00:42:27 Talking.
Patrick:
00:42:28 Talking?
Colin Watkinson:
00:42:28 Yeah. Really breaking it down and questioning what's going on, what are we saying, why we saying it and how we say it, and pushing things backwards and forwards. Putting ideas out, not being afraid to put an idea out and not being afraid for the idea to be rubbish, and not being afraid to tell that someone else's idea is rubbish. Not rubbish, but you know, we think there's something better.
Patrick:
00:42:57 To be honest.
Colin Watkinson:
00:42:58 Yeah, to be honest.
Patrick:
00:43:01 When you're doing series work where sometimes you will have been on the show longer than the director, or may know the show differently than the director, and someone new comes in. Does that change the dynamic of the conversation where-
Colin Watkinson:
00:43:15 Every director is different. If they're there for a reason, you got to try and find out why they're there and get the best out of them and work with them and enjoy the process. That's what I try and do.
Patrick:
00:43:28 When you have those conversations with the director, is there anything that you do to facilitate an easier or a quicker way to pick up the dialogue? Do you like to use reference stills and send them through to the director and say this is what we were thinking, or do you like for them to say that to you and then you go out and-
Colin Watkinson:
00:43:47 I like them to come at me usually with a starting point, a kick off point. That means something to them. The director kicks it off, and then we bash it around, throw it around a bit. I mean, sometimes they go this is it, this is what I'm doing. Get in line. I guess it's because I've been on this show for two years. It has changed how I work a lot, but again, it's all the collaboration and that's what we're trying to find, the best fit.
Patrick:
00:44:31 I can imagine it's different. I haven't done something as long as that, or as in depth, but does it change what's exciting to you about coming into work? When you're on commercials and every single week, you'll be in a different spot with a different director doing a different thing, and you have that newness to keep things fresh and exciting and the problem solving. Does that change? Does that go away when you work on something that needs to main ... I mean, there's consistency throughout but does it change the enjoyment?
Colin Watkinson:
00:45:0 0No, because I feel I change everything regularly. I'll probably never like the same set twice. The way I look at that is in your house, you go into your room at different times of the day, it always looks different. Always. That's how I see life. Even though some of those sets we've shot on numerous times, there's always a different way to look at it so that's what I try to do to keep it fresh.
Patrick:
00:45:32 How does the idea of keeping things fresh translate to your communication with the crews? Are you someone that is very exact in what you want or do you allow-
Colin Watkinson:
00:45:42 Yes.
Patrick:
00:45:43 As in you'll say the lights, this is what I want, this is where I want it, and the crew then translates that?
Colin Watkinson:
00:45:50 Yes.
Patrick:
00:45:53 Is that how it's always been?
Colin Watkinson:
00:45:55 No. I mean, yes. I'm quite controlling when I'm on set. Again, I will listen to everyone's ideas, but I'll lead the way. If someone has a better idea, I'll take it, and that's from any part of the crew, but I'll run it until someone comes up with something, some suggestions. I'm always open to suggestions.
Patrick:
00:46:21 The environment that you find your best work in, is that something that is controlled or when you're doing scenes, are you doing exhaustive lighting plans beforehand to then have the freedom on the day to be able to move, or do you like to challenge yourself when you're there?
Colin Watkinson:
00:46:42 On this show, we started out with a plan on the sets. They're in place, and have been in place. They've changed a few times, but the bones have always been there. I have to have the bones, and then the flexibility to move within there. That's what I try and create so I don't lock myself in. If I feel trapped, that's a bad thing.
Patrick:
00:47:10 Can you tell in your relationship with directors when there are some directors that will be very hands off and say, "Colin, you do the things that you do." Or, there will be directors that'll be very interested in the visual side of things. Do you feel at home in environment or another?
Colin Watkinson
:00:47:25 I mean, I guess I've worked with Tarsem for 25 years. He's a master visualist. I feel very comfortable in that environment, even to the point that one feels not good enough to be in that, right? It was like oh my God, this is amazing. I never would have thought of this in a million years. I like that. It drives me to try and do better. Then, other directors who are not visual, they'll have another gift and I'll enjoy that side of it. There'll be something there. There's so many fascinating people out there. I always just hone in to what they're really good at, and enjoy that.
Patrick:
00:48:14 Do you find that as the shows get bigger or the projects get bigger, and more cameras come to the fold, do you feel at home away from the camera or do you like to operate?
Colin Watkinson:
00:48:24 I like to operate. I like to be right at the sharp end. I feel like I react better. I feel totally invested when I'm there. I can adapt much quicker.
Patrick:
00:48:42 How many cameras are you guys using on Handmaid's Tale?
Colin Watkinson:
00:48:44 We have two regularly.
Patrick:
00:48:45 Two?
Colin Watkinson:
00:48:45 Yeah. I don't try and shoot two all the time. If it's one camera, it's one camera. I don't really like to compromise a second camera.
Patrick:
00:48:56 Would you do the same thing as before when we talked about crew and lighting placement, would you do the same thing with a second camera where you would be saying this is what I'm doing, this is what I want you to do?
Colin Watkinson:
00:49:05 Yes. Yeah, I want to know when everything's going on. Every shot is as important to me as the next. I really hate the term A & B cameras. My crew laugh at me. They ignore me completely, but I don't have A & B cameras because every show is as important as the next. I don't like throwaway shots because sometimes they make into the cut and it makes me mad.
Patrick:
00:49:35 Yeah, definitely. When you're considering the use of the two cameras, is it a time thing as opposed to a choice thing? Or, is it all dependent on the scene?
Colin Watkinson:
00:49:46 All dependent on the scene. A film I did with Tarsem, The Fall was we had this young actress and he decided literally day one that he was never going to miss a single word she said on film. We always had a camera on her, and we had to work around that. It was genius. We got some amazing performances. People talk about how'd you get performance out of that girl? That's how we did i
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