APEX Express – 4.30.26 – Bruce Lee and the Manosphere

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Tonight on APEX Express, Host Miko Lee focuses on Asian American Men, Bruce Lee and the mano-sphere. She chats with renowned author and thinker Jeff Chang about his new book: Bruce Lee & the making of Asian America, Water Mirror Echo. Then she talks with Rachel Koelzer the Communications Director for Nakasec about their new study of Asian American men and the manosphere.

How are images of Asian American male identify being shaped and formed in our current society and what does Bruce Lee have to do with this? Listen in.

More in tonight’s show

Jeff Chang’s book: Water, Mirror, Echo

Nakasec ReportAsian American Men and Mano-sphere

CAAMFest 2026, running May 7-10, 2026, San Francisco’s AMC Kabuki Theatre

Show Transcripts

[00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:40] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Mika Lee, and tonight we are focusing on Asian American men, Bruce Lee and the Manosphere. I chat with renowned author and thinker Jeff Chang about his new book, Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America Water Mirror Echo. Then I speak with Rachel Koelzer, the communications director for NAKASEC, about their new study of Asian American men and the Manosphere. So how are images of Asian American male identity being shaped and formed in our current society, and what does Bruce Lee have to do with all this? First, listen to my conversation with author Jeff Chang. Welcome Jeff Chang to Apex Express. 

[00:01:24] Jeff Chang: Ah, it’s so great to be here. Miko. So happy. 

[00:01:27] Miko Lee: I’m so happy to talk with you about your latest book. You’re such a prolific writer, and here you have written a big Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America Water Mirror Echo. Such a mighty title. I wanna start first just a question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:01:49] Jeff Chang: Oh my gosh. What a great question to start with. You know, my family, my communities, they all kind of blend together, the blood family, the kin family, and the chosen family, for me. I guess I’m always [laughs], I’m first born Chinese Kanaka, you know, I’m always aware that I am, representing, I guess, So I, you know, I carry that family with me wherever I go.

[00:02:16] Miko Lee: I, I think I know what that means. But for our audience that might not know what a firstborn Chinese kanaka means, can you break that down a little bit? What does that mean to you when you say that? 

[00:02:25] Jeff Chang: Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s just the, i, it it’s just a thing of, you know, you’re gonna go out and represent the family and, you’re thrust into Taking on responsibilities and stuff for your folks, your siblings, your, younger cousins, those kinds of things. I was always very aware of that within the family. My dad’s from a really big family, had six siblings and, my mom’s from a large extended, family. so that’s, That’s such a fantastic question Miko. Bruce was the second child, which, you know, birth order and all that kind of stuff. It also squares, I think with, a Chinese family. He felt like he was always in the shadow of his older brother.

[00:03:10] Miko Lee: Okay. Hold on. Let’s get to Bruce in a second. I wanna finish with you as an author, creator person. 

[00:03:16] Jeff Chang: Okay. 

[00:03:16] Miko Lee: Wait, so you are the number one son. 

[00:03:18] Jeff Chang: I’m the number one son. Yeah. 

[00:03:19] Miko Lee: Ooh, okay. I get it. Yeah. And then what is the legacy that you carry with you? 

[00:03:24] Jeff Chang: The legacy. I just have to represent, in a point, a kind of a way, in a proper kind of a way. You know, the family , and those kinds of things. I was also very rebellious. I came back after my freshman year as the Berkeley Radical. My Uncle Fungi was like, oh, here comes the Berkeley radical. Okay. Then of course, you gotta sit down and drink beer and tell ’em , all the stories and that kind of thing. So, you know, just being able to, carry on, a legacy of being upright and being, just, right. And sort of being appropriate in all that you do. just aware of that. Grew up aware of that. Yeah. 

[00:04:02] Miko Lee: And then what was your first memory of Bruce Lee?

[00:04:06] Jeff Chang: Ah, I don’t have a first memory. He was just part of the ether, you know what I mean? He was part of the

[00:04:10] Miko Lee: Ah, yeah.

[00:04:11] Jeff Chang: Yeah. He was part of the air. I think I came of age, after the generation, like my older cousins who were able to see Bruce in the theaters. We came up the next generation, we saw Bruce on tv. Return of the Dragon would come on and everybody would stop everything and just watch that. During the commercial breaks we’re jumping around and kicking each other and stuff like that. I mean that, that kind of thing, right? 

[00:04:34] Miko Lee: Yeah, totally. When I was growing up, people would always ask me if I was related to Bruce Lee, because Lee, because that was like, right, yeah, Lee. Yeah. Yeah. There’s not a billion Lees’ in the world. 

[00:04:44] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. 

[00:04:45] Miko Lee: Yeah. So I get it and I try to explain to my daughters, and our kids are around the same age, the cultural phenomenon that he was, and it’s hard to explain it to this generation because there wasn’t really other Asian American representation than Bruce Lee when we were growing up.

[00:05:03] Jeff Chang: Yeah. Yeah. And now they have Alysa Liu, you know, they have eileen Gu, they have all of these different folks. So if you don’t like Alysa, you could like Eileen. Or if you don’t like, if you like Eileen, you don’t have to like Alysa. Right. Or you can like ’em both. They have choices.

[00:05:14] Miko Lee: You could like Chloe. 

[00:05:16] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They like Chloe, right? There’s choices. Yeah. Like Chloe’s on the Olympic stand with two other Asians. It’s just wild. It’s a beautiful thing. and it’s not like the kind of reality that we grew up in. It’s true. 

[00:05:29] Miko Lee: Yeah. So what made you decide to write this book? you’ve written many books about pop culture and around theory and around Americana, and what made you decide to write a book about Bruce Lee? 

[00:05:41] Jeff Chang: So the book came to me actually, it was an Asian American editor back during a time, not so long ago, but a while ago, when there weren’t a lot of Asian American editors in the business. And he came to me and that was amazing in and of itself. And he said basically, Hey man, you did this book on hip hop. This is back in, the latter part of the two thousands. I wanna imagine I haven’t gone back and looked at the date. ’cause it, it actually hurts me to think about it. But he saw you did this book like. Do you think you could do a book on Bruce Lee? And I was like, yeah, I could do that. I was hyped to do that. Please. Because Yeah. ’cause Bruce was our hero. Yeah. Just like we were talking about. The most famous Asian American who’s ever lived. It took me a long time to get going and I gotta admit I lost the plot at some point. I just was like, what am I doing? There were books that came out, about Bruce in the interim. there was one other biography that had come out, in the late 2010s, 

[00:06:37] Miko Lee: and I think I told you about one of the books. I think it’s that book that I read written by a white guy and I wrote about it in good reads because I read a lot and that’s how I keep track of the books I read. I don’t think about anybody else reading those reviews that I write? It’s like writing in a journal or something. Now I use story graph ‘ it’s amazing. Not commercial, but at the time I used Goodreads and the author wrote back to me, I think I told you this story. 

[00:07:04] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah. Tell me. Tell, so what did you write and what did the author write back to you?

[00:07:08] Miko Lee: I wrote that I thought that this author did not understand what an icon Bruce was to the Asian American community, and it was written in a way that didn’t, grasp the whole complexity of what he meant to us. He wrote this really, mean note back to me about how he had Shannon, Bruce’s daughter’s support and he was the one that could tell the story. And I thought, whoa, I was just shocked. That was the first time. Since then, I’ve had many different authors write back to me, but that was like the first one and wrote back in a mean way. So anyways. 

[00:07:39] Jeff Chang: Was it public or this was a private, A private email back to you. 

[00:07:43] Miko Lee: I think it’s public. I don’t know. Have to go look. I was shook at the time. Like what? 

[00:07:49] Jeff Chang: Wow. Okay. 

[00:07:50] Miko Lee: Anyway, so when I heard you were writing a book, I said, okay, finally, finally. Yay. 

[00:07:55] Jeff Chang: Hmm. Yeah. You know, and I’ll be honest, I, I had this sort of crisis of confidence. I was sort of like, you know, this is, okay, we’ll put it out there. ’cause you already went there. It’s Matthew Polly’s book, Bruce Lee Life. I read it, he had done amazing research. He had spoken to a lot of people. I thought I was supposed to do this kind of a book. Now there’s a particular kind of genre, that folks who are maybe in the industry recognize and, it’s called I’m putting scare quotes around this, like the definitive biography, 

[00:08:27] Miko Lee: right. 

[00:08:28] Jeff Chang: In this particular case, the definitive biography, because he’s a movie star s. Sort of coincides or converges with this other genre, which is the celebrity biography. I’m putting scare quotes around that too. So, the mission of a celebrity biographer is really to tell a story of, this celebrity. Is not as cool as you think they are. Like, their crap stinks. They cheated on their spouses. They like didn’t file their taxes, they kicked their dog, they said mean things to different people. That’s a celebrity biography. It’s basically to tarnish the star. and if not, then it’s sort of a hagiography, which is sort of a whole other kind of thing. And we don’t wanna do that as writers. We wanna approach the truth. But there’s sort of a certain kind of thing that comes into play, with Bruce. There’s a sort of genre of the take down of Bruce where it’s usually men that are writing this, and the men are usually like, well, Bruce was my hero when I was a kid, but now I’ve gotta take him down. You know what I mean? It’s, and so you see it over and over again and, you know, there’s a sort of a weird thing going on, especially I think with, white males who have loved Bruce Lee in the past feeling like they need to take him down.So let’s say 

[00:09:50] Miko Lee: Quinton Tarantino. 

[00:09:52] Jeff Chang: Okay, you said it. I didn’t, but I was gonna say like Albert Goldman, who was a journalist who famously wrote a take down of Elvis Presley. 

[00:10:00] Miko Lee: Right.

[00:10:01] Jeff Chang: and did one of Bruce that was unbelievably racist. Now, I’m not saying that Matthew was trying to do this at all. I think that his scholarship and his work was really, really good. But I, I felt crowded out a little bit. You know, I felt like, gosh, I don’t know what there is to say? I was very aware that there were a lot of books that had been written about Bruce and that I was writing into or out of, or in opposition to a tradition.

[00:10:30] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:31] Jeff Chang: These are the Bruce. Lee Stories. and so at that particular point, in the late 2000 tens, I just said, what am I gonna do? And Lourdes, my partner, walked me up to the park and just tore into me like, what, you’re gonna give up now? You can’t give up now. You gotta do this, you have to. Who else is gonna do this? And I’m just feeling all that, Chinese Kanaka, firstborn, guilt, responsibility. she’s about the only person that I can take a tongue lashing like that from. We walk back the mile to the house and my head was between my legs and I was like, all right, I’ll do it. I’ll do it. But I didn’t know what I was gonna do to be completely real. I didn’t know what I was gonna do. So the other thing that was kind of happening at this particular point was I was noticing, and you and I both have, children who are now adults, but at that time they were younger. They were like coming into their own, they’re in their teens and that kind of thing, and that particular generation was coming up in some ways. Like we talked about, like they had all of these folks that they could look to. 

[00:11:34] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:34] Jeff Chang: Right. you know, our kids have opportunities in media that we never had.

[00:11:39] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:39] Jeff Chang: We’ve had to break through in a lot of ways. And there was also, in a weird way, this sort of entropy around this notion of Asian America. Like young people who call themselves Asian American would also sit around and be like, what even is an Asian American? How do I relate to these other types of folks who are also classed as Asian Americans, or who describe themselves as Asian Americans as well. Like politically, culturally, the kind of food we eat, the way we dress, who we hang out with. Like all of the diversity that we’ve celebrated for so many years felt like entropy, I think, to them like this is, there’s no center to this anymore. Then the pandemic happened and the violence, Was one way of saying this is it’s the ice cube moment. This is what they think of you. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, and I think that was what galvanized, especially a lot of young people to find a new sense of purpose, a new sense of activism, a new sense of, how to be in the world And 

[00:12:43] Miko Lee: for maybe some young folks who had never felt that they had experienced direct racism before, to suddenly see it really blatant in the community. 

[00:12:52] Jeff Chang: Right. And, it was personal. It touched all of us. I know everyone has stories about how we were treated during the pandemic, and especially the women and especially, the queer folks. In a lot of ways it was paradigm shifting and it was paradigm shifting for me too, you know, so I’m writing about this guy who considers himself a martial artist. 

[00:13:13] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:14] Jeff Chang: And he’s teaching people about self-defense. 

[00:13:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:19] Jeff Chang: And in his career being accused of fomenting violence, like a lot of. Folks in hip hop have been over the years. 

[00:13:27] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:28] Jeff Chang: I’m suddenly like looking at this in a completely different light. What does it mean to think about self-defense and violence and training to be a warrior, right? I have a lot of folks who are in the military. My mom worked for the police department, like what does that mean? For somebody like me who’s, essentially anti militarist, who has critiques of the police, as we all should. who’s a deep supporter of Black Lives Matter, like how do we think about what it means to, to be a warrior, and also to understand like the dignity, right in wanting to be a protector. 

[00:14:04] Miko Lee: Right. 

[00:14:05] Jeff Chang: Right. And to, uplift what that means, but to kind of think about all of these existential questions and then at the same time to see Bruce popping back up on our walls and murals and popping up on our feeds as a symbol, right. Of pride. Especially during this particular period, near us in the bay, like in San Francisco, Chinatown or Oakland Chinatown, young people bringing back the image of Bruce as a symbol of pride and also this sort of cry for like, can you see us? This sort of underlying desire to find solidarity. All of this mixed up with this like identity crisis that is now taking a different type of turn. So it was a lot to think about and suddenly I was just like, oh, oh, oh, wait a minute. Maybe that’s what I’m supposed to write about. So the book became, about Bruce, but also about Bruce as an Asian American and about him kind of traveling parallel to the rise of the Asian American movement. 

[00:15:04] Miko Lee: Yeah, I think it’s so powerful that way, that it does tell this whole Asian American history for folks that might not know from, the very beginning of our, coming from the exclusion act to I hotel, to Vincent Chin and not just like politically, but then also cinematically because he crossed over so many barriers for us. So we’re also getting Asian American cinema history with Anna May Wong and Sessue Hayakawa, and even the Hong Kong industry. So I love how you combined all these different elements. It’s such a wonderful way to look at that. And I’m wondering what made you decide to organize the book into these three categories of water, mirror, echo.

[00:15:44] Jeff Chang: The line came first, Bruce’s famous. Epigraph is, be water my friend, and, me being the nerd that I am, I wanted to trace the origins of that and found it pretty quickly, in a sort of, Daoist type of text. called the leads and the full, Section that, had influenced Bruce so much was moving be like water, still be like a mirror, respond like an echo. This is a line that actually resonates through Zen Buddhism as well. It was one of those things where when I first read it in Bruce’s Dao Jeet Kun Do, I fell outta my chair. It was amazing. It blew me away. We’d all heard “be water.” We’d heard athletes say it. we’d heard, business leaders, say, we saw the activists in Hong Kong, using it, in the streets. and. Yet to see all of this together was even deeper. That was a window into wow. We think of Bruce as the great popularizer of martial arts. Bruce, he’s not recognized as the great popularizer of Asian philosophy, in a lot of ways. It happened during this particular period during the sixties where, views of Asians and Asian Americans were beginning to shift dramatically, opening up in a lot of ways. So we had this phrase, my editor, Akia Clark, and I. She was like, all right, “how are you gonna organize this Jeff?” I was like, I don’t know, help me. And she’s like, all right, there’s a water, there’s a mirror, there’s an echo here. And it actually tracks to his life and the arc of his story and I was like, “oh, wow. Yeah.” So I can’t take any credit. I have to give it to my editor, who is, 

[00:17:24] Miko Lee: that’s a good editor. 

[00:17:25] Jeff Chang: Amazing. Yo, she was amazing. Rekia was like, I signed you because, I grew up and the only Asian I knew was Bruce Lee. She grew up in largely black communities. She was like, I need to know more. , I really want to hear your take on this. And, and So it was a, an incredible collaboration in that way because it was the type of here’s where we meet. She was literally giving me free reign to be able to tell me a story. Tell me why we’re meeting here. Right. Why were we meeting through Bruce? That ended up giving me so much confidence and focus after I’d had, all of these years of being in the woods and, uh, what am I gonna do? And then, Lourdes is trying to shake me up That’s kind of how it, 

[00:18:09] Miko Lee: it took that time, that time to simmer, and your creative juices to be able to come up with this. 

[00:18:15] Jeff Chang: Yeah. Yeah. It didn’t feel. Like it at the time, but looking back now, I’m not the fastest, ho nu in the water. 

[00:18:22] Miko Lee: Because you talked a little bit about confidence and how much Bruce shared about, Asian philosophy, which I think is really true. I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about his sense of confidence, both in himself, and then a sense of destiny, like the mark that he was gonna leave on the planet. 

[00:18:38] Jeff Chang: It’s very interesting to me because I think that this has been kind of, a part of the Bruce Lee legend. It was like he was born for a purpose. I was going through his papers and talking to, his, surviving family members and friends, like it was all improv. 

[00:18:55] Miko Lee: Really him saying all those things was improv. What was all improv? 

[00:18:59] Jeff Chang: Yeah. I think part of it, I think, well, maybe it wasn’t an all improv, certainly he was driven.

[00:19:04] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:04] Jeff Chang: He was incredibly ambitious and he was incredibly driven and he knew where he wanted to go. Absolutely 2000%, I think he entered this journey, like all of us in our journeys, you know, like we’re maybe packed for the journey, but we might find along the way that we don’t have what we need. I was attuned to the points where that narrative would break down. To all of the vulnerabilities that he was feeling in different moments. and especially because I got to talk to folks, who knew him, who maybe hadn’t necessarily been interviewed in like, the years. His very close Asian American friends, the folks who knew him, off the martial arts training floor. the folks who thought he was weird and kind of corny, folks at UW. All of these folks knew him at the University of Washington. And the, the common thing was, this guy’s goofy. He’s just had a one track mind. Like, he just wants to like show us like. Like Gung fu things all the time. Like who does that? 

[00:20:08] Miko Lee: Like Bruce stop already. We heard that. 

[00:20:10] Jeff Chang: right, right. Like punch me like, you want me to punch you? That was funny. You know, I was just, and that was sort of also a mind shift, you know, like 

[00:20:19] Miko Lee: Yeah.

[00:20:19] Jeff Chang: It was like, oh, so there was a time before 

[00:20:21] Miko Lee: he was revered, 

[00:20:22] Jeff Chang: the cool guy. Yeah, before he was the cool guy. Then before he was the guy that was like super suave and like all the, whatever all the ladies wanted and all the guys wanted to be like, that’s been the Bruce narrative. So I was attuned to those parts and what strikes me is how much at the end he stuck to his guns. Like folks will read this in the last section of the book, and I don’t want to give it away, but this is when Destiny kicks in and Bruce rises to the top and he makes another dragon. He becomes this global star and it was meant to happen. And I was like, no. He was actually fighting every step of the way. Like every day of his life. He felt like this thing was gonna fall apart. At one time, he boycotted his own movie because they weren’t giving him what he wanted. Some of his closest friends say the real thing that killed him. People talk about the coroner’s report conspiracy, like evil spirits that, but what he really did was like sacrifice himself in a way. That’s how a lot of his friends talk about it, you know? From a sense of this deep personal loss of somebody whom they loved so much and who was like there one day and suddenly gone the next, And so, you know, to deal too with that, question of the melancholia that comes with what we experience when we’re the survivors of someone we love, who suffers a premature death. In that regard, like I feel like the last part of the book too was deeply informed by. All of the stuff that’s come before, with the Black Lives Matter movement. You know, and understanding, that these came from deep sources of grief and mourning and loss. Thinking about what it’s meant for Asian Americans to have to look at two generations before we get to the things that Bruce was fighting for representationally 

[00:22:14] Miko Lee: Yeah. 

[00:22:14] Jeff Chang: You know, before we can get to everything everywhere, all at once. And Michelle Yeoh, receiving the Oscar for that. Like it took two generations. It took Brandon passing away one generation after his father, and then it took a whole bunch of other work that, a lot of folks needed to do in order for us to be able to. Get the kinds of representations that we hoped that we might see after, another dragon. and that, something that, has produced a melancholia in us, you know? 

[00:22:48] Miko Lee: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:22:49] Jeff Chang: So. 

[00:22:50] Miko Lee: You are talking a little bit about the people that you interviewed and there’s so many clearly that you did, and when I was reading it, the backstory of Taki, that was when I thought, oh, this is an Asian American author. I mean, I know you, but it like, including that whole backstory I thought was so powerful and actually helped to build out the story of who he is, who his friends were and how he worked with them. I’m wondering if there’s an interview that you didn’t get. 

[00:23:14] Jeff Chang: So many. So many. 

[00:23:16] Miko Lee: Oh really? 

[00:23:17] Jeff Chang: Yeah. I mean, I haven’t gone back to look at the original contract and the date because so many people passed away. I got started on this, I had three other books that I had to complete from my, publisher at the time this book was signed out of, those contracts. I had had a full-time job then, and then when the, pandemic and BLM sort of reached that inflection point, it was a much more than full-time job. I didn’t have time to be able to actually devote the book that I really needed to. I did research over a very long course of time. I did interviews over a very long course of time, but I started the interviews too late, so I couldn’t interview Taki. 

[00:23:54] Miko Lee: oh wow. Okay. 

[00:23:55] Jeff Chang: I couldn’t, yeah. Taki, was, alive. He lived to a very old age, but Alzheimer’s. Um, 

[00:24:01] Miko Lee: oh wow. 

[00:24:02] Jeff Chang: Took him, you know? By the time I started reaching out, it was a little bit like too late. I spoke to his son instead at great length. and a lot of other folks around, him. There wasn’t just one, there were a million interviews. I didn’t get. Taki, I didn’t interview Jesse Glover. I would’ve loved to have interviewed some of his friends From Hong Kong, but we couldn’t access them because of the pandemic. I had an amazing researcher on the ground, Winnie Fu who, did a lot of amazing work there and was able to source a lot of stuff for us. There was so many people, and even now, like I was just up in Seattle for the unveiling of the Bruce Lee postage stamp, and I got to meet a friend of his from high school, and so I’m gonna sit down. I’ve been talking with Shannon’s, cousin, Bruce’s niece who has been keeping the genealogies of the family. We’ve been talking a lot. I’m gonna go back and interview her, and so hopefully maybe by the time the paperback edition comes around, I might be able to have some new information that I might be able to throw in in that edition. 

[00:25:03] Miko Lee: Yeah. What surprised you most about the research? 

[00:25:06] Jeff Chang: I think that Bruce was vulnerable. He felt very lonely a lot of the time. he had set himself out like this huge impossible dream in some ways. he knew his destination. He had no idea how he was gonna get there. That’s where I talk about it was all improv. and at different points he despaired. I don’t know if these folks are really seeing me, I don’t think they really understand me. After the Green Hornet, he couldn’t get a job. That he felt was befitting him, you know? So he’s taking whatever work he can get. He’s working as a fight choreographer for Nancy Kwan. And, just doing what he can and he’s relying upon people to put him on. He’s doing Gung FU training of a lot of the Hollywood top brass. So he can reach out to them, but even they don’t believe in him. They don’t believe in him like that. That’s why he decides he has to leave. But it takes him literally four years to realize, oh, they don’t see me as a main character. They don’t see me the way I see myself. Yeah. So I gotta go. Even then he’s still trying to get on the TV show, Kung fu. When that door slams and they cast David Carradine yellow face, he’s like, oh, that, and that’s when the ice cube moment really sets in for him. Like, that’s how they see me. That’s how they really understand me. After that, he’s fighting this battle to try to get back to Hollywood. That’s, one of the things he feels like he really wants to do. his thought is that I need to build up as much capital as I possibly can in order to be able to negotiate from a point of, strength. It’s just very hip hop. It’s very wutang clan. He’s able to kind of get there. But he’s still gotta fight these battles at the end. They just wanted him to shut up and kick. They gave him a black CoStar and a white CoStar because they were afraid that an Asian lead wouldn’t make it. They wanted to name the movie Hans Island. Not Enter the Dragon because, Oriental villains were easier to understand than an Asian American male lead. So 

[00:27:00] Miko Lee: that’s such a horrible title too. 

[00:27:02] Jeff Chang: Oh my God. How can you imagine we would not be talking about Hans Island. 

[00:27:07] Miko Lee: I don’t know how they thought that was a good idea. 

[00:27:10] Jeff Chang: Yeah, it’s true. 

[00:27:11] Miko Lee: Is there anything else that you would like your audiences that to understand about Bruce Lee? 

[00:27:16] Jeff Chang: What I tried to do is portray him in the context that he actually lived in, We’ve got the legend of Bruce, we’ve got the stories, of Bruce that have kind of burnished the legend. What I tried to do was to try to put him back as a human being, as a young person walking through Hong Kong streets and the streets of China, you know, down Grant and then, down King Street in Seattle. making it up to the studios, in Hollywood. and what that meant, for him to, actually accomplish all this kind of stuff. Because when we take away the legend, and this is one of the things I was worried about too, back in the late 2000 tens when I was like, I don’t know what I’m gonna write. When you take away the legend. I was worried that people were gonna be like, oh, you just want to drag down this guy? And you’re like the guy that’s just throwing water on our hero. But what I’m, really understanding now is. when you look back at what he went through and what he overcame, he actually becomes even more heroic, to all of us. He wasn’t a perfect person. but I think he remains a hero like more than a half century after his passing because of the things that he did. 

[00:28:28] Miko Lee: I think that’s right and I think you do an amazing job in the book of incorporating this powerful Asian American history and putting, his experience in a time and place that helps the broader world understand what an icon he is and remains. And I really appreciate you for writing this book and taking this time and the amount of energy it took to Percolate really pays off. 

[00:28:52] Jeff Chang: Thanks so much. I so appreciate you.

[00:28:55] Miko Lee: So I’m gonna be interviewing NAKASEC on their new study on Asian American Men in the Manosphere. Are you familiar about this?

[00:29:02] Jeff Chang: Oh, I can’t wait to read this. I cannot wait to read this. It’s so, 

[00:29:06] Miko Lee: do you know about this? No. To this report. 

[00:29:08] Jeff Chang: I didn’t know about it. I didn’t know about it. I’m, I’m glad somebody’s doing it. 

[00:29:11] Miko Lee: Yeah. So they did a whole survey and they found that there is a lot of Asian American men that are part of the manosphere. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering for you, who’s written about Asian American male identity, if you have thoughts about this? 

[00:29:26] Jeff Chang: So many thoughts. I was very much thinking about the Asian American manosphere as I was writing this book, because these are my cousins, these are my friends, these are, folks who I’ve sparred with.

[00:29:39] Miko Lee: Right.

[00:29:40] Jeff Chang: These are conversations I’m having with folks, at the bar over a meal. I’m really interested in seeing how we’re able to understand what the appeal of the far right has been around questions, of masculinity in this moment and to win these folks back. I’ve also seen on the flip side, shifts and changes, around, how Asian American masculinity is displayed sea on social media in this era of a crackdown in immigration. 

[00:30:19] Miko Lee: Yeah. 

[00:30:20] Jeff Chang: We really do need solidarity. We really do identify with, what Latinos, are going through. What I worry about is that, the Asian American left, our first in instinct would be just to be like, ah, I can’t talk to them. it’s Gonna like upset me too much. I can’t deal with this. Somebody has to,, because that, those are our folks and we’ve lost them over the last, five years or so and we’ve gotta get ’em back.

[00:30:45] Miko Lee: And are there folks that you know of that are working specifically on ways to pull this community back? 

[00:30:50] Jeff Chang: I imagine that there’s a lot of work on the ground that’s happening. because this is the, world that I’m in, I look to the folks who are, doing podcasts or doing social media work and, who are, often, men who. Are, you know, kind of like me, like troubled by this development and trying to find a way to speak to their folks as well. I’m monitoring that. I’m not, deep within it, but, like I said, I wrote this book, understanding that, that particular subset of our community. those are the folks that, are the Bruce Lee fans. 

[00:31:22] Miko Lee: Yeah. 

[00:31:23] Jeff Chang: and are the folks who are, involved in, mixed martial arts and, involved in, athletics and, all these other kinds of things. And, and they’re not too far away. 

[00:31:33] Miko Lee: Yeah. It feels like there’s a disconnect between that kind of loving of Bruce Lee and that world, and interaction with politics, interaction with the current events and how that’s impacting them and their families. 

[00:31:48] Jeff Chang: Well, I think it’s. Yeah. I put that down to the fragmentation of the way that we receive media. 

[00:31:54] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:55] Jeff Chang: You know, and also, of course, the ways in which social media is geared towards the extremes. The way it’s geared towards the extremes and towards lifting up the. Loudest crudest voices sometimes. Mm-hmm. That’s exactly where the manosphere originates from. Right? That’s where it 

[00:32:15] Miko Lee: lives. 

[00:32:15] Jeff Chang: Yeah. That’s where it lives, is inside that pocket. It’s about again, trying to get inside of that and what’s causing that. What’s the melancholia that’s behind that? What is generating this rage, this fury, and being able to channel that, fury, that anger into, ways that will actually help not just all of us, but specifically them. 

[00:32:39] Miko Lee: Yeah. 

[00:32:40] Jeff Chang: That’s an organizing problem that we have to take up.

[00:32:43] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I’m gonna send you the research, the report so you can read it and, 

[00:32:48] Jeff Chang: uh, I can’t wait to break this open. Oh, 

[00:32:52] Miko Lee: okay. I appreciate you. Thanks so much.

[00:32:54] Jeff Chang: Thank you.

[00:32:55] Miko Lee: Next up I speak with Rachel Kelzer, the communications director for NAKASEC, about their new study of Asian American men and the manosphere.Welcome Rachel Koelzer, communications Director for NAKASEC. Welcome to Apex Express. 

[00:33:12] Rachel Koelzer: Hi. Thank you so much for having me today. 

[00:33:15] Miko Lee: Can you first explain for our audience, your organization that you work with NAKASEC 

[00:33:19] Rachel Koelzer: So NAKASEC is short for the National Korean American Service and Education Consortium. We are a national network of five affiliated organizations in six states.

[00:33:32] Miko Lee: Thank you. I wanna start with the question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:33:41] Rachel Koelzer: This is a great question. My people are the dreamers. They are the community rooted, change makers who believe that we are accountable and responsible to each other. For our collective wellbeing, our collective liberation, and our collective joy and care for each other. My people are also Korean adoptees, part of the Asian diaspora, and people who have survived challenges of life and still seek joy and to thrive.

[00:34:23] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. Through your work at NAKASEC, you recently released this report with a big old title, Asian Men, the Manosphere and Social Media, an Inflection Point for Asian American Advocacy and American Democracy. Wow. Can you first talk about what inspired this study?

[00:34:43] Rachel Koelzer: I became aware that there was this ongoing trend and challenge that we were having of not reaching young Asian men. Our followers were predominantly non men. Based on gender and significantly more women following us. Something like 70 30, 80 20. I talked with other organizations who also do advocacy and community based work who also faced similar challenges. I just wondered why. What is it that is preventing us from effectively reaching this large portion of our community that we serve? So from there we went and partnered with Dr. Tom Wong, and really started to dive into exploring the reasons behind it. 

[00:35:34] Miko Lee: So let’s back up for a second. Can you explain for our audience what the manosphere is? 

[00:35:40] Rachel Koelzer: The manosphere in kind of simplified terms, it’s a loosely connected network, of online communities, influencers and content creators who focus on men’s issues, masculinity, dating, health and fitness, financial wealth, and gender dynamics. It includes this wide spectrum of content, that range from like the more everyday fitness self-help. To more controversial topics, like anti-feminism, traditional gender roles and critiques of modern women in society. The common thread across these, loosely connected, communities and spaces is this underlying thread of traditional gender norms and expectations. 

[00:36:30] Miko Lee: So is the manosphere inherently misogynistic? 

[00:36:34] Rachel Koelzer: Yes. 

[00:36:35] Miko Lee: Well that was a really quick response. Yes. No question. 

[00:36:38] Rachel Koelzer: [Laughter] I being real here, you know? Yeah. It is. 

[00:36:46] Miko Lee: Okay. 

[00:36:46] Rachel Koelzer: So within the broader manosphere, there’s also men’s rights activists. Some more like toxic masculine type views. There is a little bit of a range, but yes, inherently, there’s deep rooted misogyny.

[00:36:58] Miko Lee: So how did you find people for your Study were they self-described people that participated in the manosphere?

[00:37:06] Rachel Koelzer: We partnered with Dr. Tom Wong, who is at the University of California, San Diego to conduct this survey. He used the voter file. They are self-identified Asian men and we set the parameters to be between the ages of 18 to 45. They identified across political ideology, across political party, and started with more general questions around their social media use. What platforms were they on? What, were the reasons that they were on social media. Who did they follow? To get a baseline understanding of where and what they’re consuming. We know that they’re online. There were questions about engagement with the manosphere.

[00:37:52] Miko Lee: What did this study reveal? What was surprising to you? 

[00:37:57] Rachel Koelzer: What was really shocking is that one in five young Asian men are regularly engaging with manosphere content. That’s 20% one in five.

[00:38:07] Miko Lee: That’s a huge number. 

[00:38:08] Rachel Koelzer: It’s a huge number. Yeah. They’re engaging with this content that is, starting off pretty innocuous like, you want to look better, you want to feel better, you want to have better relationships. What’s being embedded in that to varying degrees of, subtlety are these values of more traditional expectations and roles. It’s alarming that this that this many young Asian men are regularly engaging with it. We defined engaging, as, commenting, following, sharing. There were questions about how often they’re seeing it across their feed, whether or not they’re looking for it or not. We found that 35% of young Asian men are encountering manosphere content on their social media feeds several times a week.

[00:39:00] Miko Lee: Are they identifying it as manosphere content? 

[00:39:04] Rachel Koelzer: They identified it, yes. In the survey we did provide a definition. Beforehand of what the manosphere was, and so anything within that would have to fall under this category.

[00:39:17] Miko Lee: Are most of those influencers and content creators, Asian American men also? 

[00:39:23] Rachel Koelzer: That’s a really good question. When both Dr. Wong and our team, NAKASEC team, were doing some research there, we didn’t actually come across when we were looking at like the bigger names, right? Tens of thousands, upwards of millions followers. We didn’t really come across many of those large followers that are Asian men. The men that are perpetuating it, regardless of their race or ethnic background. I think what that points to, you mentioned white supremacy earlier, but there’s this idea and value that’s perpetuated of colorblindness. And so in this space, the gender kind of supersedes the race. What was really curious is, later on in the study we also asked, about early childhood experiences and lessons, from the adults in their lives around masculine values, around showing and expressing emotions, and around representation of asian men in the media. A large portion agreed that the overall representation of Asian men is harmful. We know for those of us who have been interrogating our experiences in the world for a while. We know that Asians and Asian men in particular, we’re stereotyped, we’re troped in a lot of ways, right, of these feminine, unattractive, nerdy, geeky, or you’ve got the other side, you’ve got the Bruce Lees, you’ve got the Jackie Chans, right? There’s a flattening that happens and . I think that is where the manosphere is dangerous and potentially even more appealing to communities who feel that they’ve been overlooked and undervalued, because it offers answers and those answers are really harmful to other communities, but they’re still providing answers.

[00:41:28] Miko Lee: Can we speak a little bit more about the perceptions of Asian Americans in the media There’s the stereotypes around women being either the dragon woman or the sexual exotic kind of play toy. Asian men, as you were pointing out, it’s either the kung fu guy or the nerdy guy or the effeminate guy. Right. There’s like not that much distinction. Is that your perception as well? 

[00:41:57] Rachel Koelzer: Yes. I think there’s been, even from when I was a child and growing up, over the past 30 years, there’s been, improvements. But I think overall yes.

[00:42:08] Miko Lee: When I grew up, the only images were movies and television, and there just was not that much. So we did have those stereotype visions, but it was so limited in scope and content. There just was not as much content. Now it’s everywhere. There’s content in your phone, there’s all these different social media apps, there’s all these different channels you can watch. I’m wondering how that has impacted Asian Americans men’s perspectives on how they see themselves and if that. Just looking at social media and the manosphere and how that impacted, the reason why you did the study and the outcomes of the study.

[00:42:46] Rachel Koelzer: The study showed that 26.7% of the men who were surveyed feel that Asian men are portrayed favorably in social media. That’s actually still a very low percentage. 71.6% agree that Asian men are often underrepresented or stereotyped in media and popular culture. Even though yes, there’s still greater representation, that there’s still the portrayals and the quality and caliber or what that representation actually is, or how it’s developed is still significantly lacking. What the manosphere offers, one, it offers answers as to how you might get away from, from those, right? You might be able to get out of that, which is to be this hyper quote unquote, masculine, dominating, character. It points the blame directly away from systems like patriarchy and white supremacy. It doesn’t really interrogate what internalized misogyny, internalized racism, looks like and is doing. It’s saying. You know what the problem is actually that women are becoming too independent. The problem is that, men are becoming too effeminate, and so there’s this combination of race blindness and naming another villain in a way that punches down.

[00:44:32] It’s a combination of looking for genuine insight and information to better understand their experiences and they’re finding answers, but the quality of those answers and the ways that they’re getting pushed to those are very problematic, very concerning. Not just for what that means for women in queer rights and immigrant rights and marginalized communities rights. These kinds of values that are being espoused and normalized. But what that means for, , how someone starts to view themselves and, their role in the world and the impact that that has on the systems, and structures of our society. 

[00:45:13] Miko Lee: There’s so many interesting things that you said. I heard you say the men are finding a sense of belonging in the manosphere, and they’re getting answers and the answers being right wing propaganda, which is being fed to them. Is that right?

[00:45:26] Rachel Koelzer: Yeah, I think that’s right. The problem is the quality of the answers that they’re receiving. The values that are embedded within that, whether or not they’re being explicitly named, it’s not. There are, again, if you go further, deeper, there are folks that are very proud to be part of the manosphere. That is a known and a shared identity as far as like we are part of the manosphere.Then there are those, I think Joe Rogan himself is like, I’m not part of that, but if you listen to his content and his messages, right? There’s a lot of those traditional right wing, very violent and misogynistic roots that are coming out in there.

[00:46:13] It starts off very innocuously looking for answers, looking to better understand your life, your experiences, and what you can do about it. That’s innocuous enough. Right. And there’s even, like, there’s a lot to be said about that kind of,, what’s the word I’m trying to think of,, initiative, right? To better understand and seek resources and things. But unfortunately through a combination of the algorithm. Through investments into these kinds of content creators, , and spaces we’re seeing that those proliferating a lot more. And so whether or not young Asian men are intentionally seeking this type of content, they’re being fed it regularly.

[00:46:54] Miko Lee: I also heard you this comment about race blindness. I get that it because it’s like men, men, men we’re men and we’re bounding together. But race blindness feels like a rube, if you will, for, white supremacy and misogyny. It’s this way of saying we are all one, but very much targeting, specific folks that are not in positions of power and control.

[00:47:21] Rachel Koelzer: Yeah, absolutely. It flattens and erases the experiences of people who have been marginalized through, our laws, our policies, and it stops the need. It stops the self-reflection and interrogation too that is asked of us otherwise, which is to reflect on what power do I hold and what is my responsibility with that power, whether it’s, having more privilege because I’m a citizen. Having privilege because you are a man. Even if you are also, historically and presently marginalized because of your race as an Asian person, it reduces that depth and again, that responsibility for self-reflection and interrogation.

[00:48:22] Miko Lee: So given all that, your report says this is a warning sign, which clearly it is and an opportunity. I wonder if you could talk a bit more about what is the opportunity here as we’re in this time of great change. Great revolution, the year of the fire horse. Talk about how we can actively disrupt that pipeline to radical extremism. 

[00:48:46] Rachel Koelzer: It’s an important question and it’s an important conversation that we need to have. There needs to be an awareness and an understanding of what it is that, is threatening the health and wellbeing of our community and of our country. What this study showed is we’re at an inflection point. The percentages, the numbers, we’re not so far down the rabbit hole, but we’re like right on the edge. We’re like at this tipping point, and so intervention is necessary now. This is a great opportunity for organizations, for community leaders to be having these conversations. To be engaging in political education with their community members to be, educating and informing and connecting with members of their community, particularly young Asian men. And it’s an opportunity for these in-person spaces and these digital spaces to be countering the manosphere with our own answers.

[00:49:51] I think that’s one of the biggest things, especially when we’re talking about a digital space, to be investing in content creators, to be investing in artists, to be investing in doing the work of putting out our own answers and solutions. Explanations and analysis of what is happening. It’s a call to action and an opportunity for funders, donors for people who have the ability, to put money behind these kinds of spaces online. There’s just this significant disparate investment. It’s an opportunity to be really investing in community, really investing in recreating spaces, building out spaces, I’m thinking particularly again, community-based organizations who can be understanding what the risks and threats are and understanding their communities where they are, and not necessarily adding to, but, with this threat in mind, how does that inform the spaces that you’re creating or the strategies that you are engaging?Whether it’s online or in person.

[00:51:13] Miko Lee: We need to gather up our brothers, our nephews, our uncles, gather ’em all up, talk about our real, Asian American history of resistance, our power, our ability to move forward, connect with that in person, pull them outta the manosphere, connect all together so that we could move forward as a community in solidarity with each other.

[00:51:37] Rachel Koelzer: Absolutely. There’s opportunities across the board regardless, of where your particular position is. Even if you’re not a part of a community organization or you’re a teacher, a parent. One of the things that also came up in this study was that across ideologies, across the political spectrum and across age groups, there was a significant number. It was like close to 70 or over 70% had shared experiences, of being discouraged from showing emotions, from being, from seeing, modeled from the men in their lives, examples of stoicism. Of, more traditional masculinity, more traditional gender norms. And so there is this also aspect of, yeah, bringing in folks, bringing in our nephews, our brothers, our cousins, our friends, our uncles, and a reflection upon what can we do to be, raising our next generations, our current and our next generations, to value themselves and those around them who are different.

To be able to express emotions, be able to have deep, reciprocal relationships, , and to have respect and understand what it means to reflect on one’s privilege that comes as a result of, an identity in this very hierarchical world, whether it’s, as a man under patriarchy or white, under white supremacy. These are skills that can be taught and can be learned. I think that this is also an opportunity to be reflecting on how we as a society understanding these 

[00:53:33] Miko Lee: Well, Rachel Koelzer, thank you so much for joining me and sharing about your report. How can people find out more about your work?

[00:53:42] Rachel Koelzer: Thank you so much for having me. You can follow NAKASEC on most social media platforms. Visit our website. We’ve got tons of resources and information there and check out our local affiliates. You can find out more about them on our website and on our socials. If you are, you know, in the area, would love to see you. 

[00:54:01] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. 

[00:54:03] Rachel Koelzer: Thank you.

[00:54:04] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us. Just a note that Apex Express will be off air for fundrive until May 28th, but we wanna acknowledge that May is Asian American, native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, and there are film festivals and cultural events happening all around the country that celebrate our diverse experiences. One Bay Area one to note is CAAMFEST. It’s back! The center of Asian American media returns for its 44th year and its festival from May 7th through the 10th is at the Kabuki Theater, a MC in San Francisco with an amazing program of impressive filmmakers. Check it out, maybe I’ll see you there and happy AANHPI month. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.. 

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