David Shedd served as acting director of the Defense Intelligence Agency; Andrew Badger is a former DIA case officer now teaching state-sponsored espionage at Oxford. Together they've written The Great Heist: China's Epic Campaign to Steal America's Secrets. Matt talks with them about how the Ministry of State Security evolved from a backwater service into what they argue is the world's most powerful intelligence agency; how Beijing replaced Cold War recruitment tradecraft with guanxi-based social obligation and what the authors call "crowd-sourced espionage"; how Made in China 2025 functioned as a national collection priority list driving theft across defense, tech, and critical infrastructure; and why Volt and Salt Typhoon represent not an espionage story but pre-positioning for war—with kill switches already embedded in America's power grid and telecommunications backbone.
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Order The Great Heist: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-great-heist-david-r-sheddandrew-badgerConnect with David and Andrew on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-shedd-00a32bb5https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewbadger1
Audio: https://pod.fo/e/3a9846YouTube: https://youtu.be/3jCFWGhI7_w
Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/secretsandspies.bsky.socialInstagram: https://instagram.com/secretsandspiesFacebook: https://facebook.com/secretsandspiesSpoutible: https://spoutible.com/SecretsAndSpies
Follow Chris and Matt on Bluesky:https://bsky.app/profile/chriscarrfilm.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/mattfulton.netSecrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD: https://filmsandpodcasts.co.uk/Music by Andrew R. BirdPhoto by Shutterstock
Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.
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