EU402: 10 Years: What Still Matters (Part 3)

The Exploring Unschooling Podcast has now been around for over 10 years and 400 episodes! This month, we’re celebrating these huge milestones by looking back and reflecting on three big questions.

In Part 3 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what still matters over the course of the past 10 years. We talked about focusing on relationships, how there is no one path and no one right way, and how children are whole and capable people right now, not just adults in training.

We thank you so much for being a part of our Exploring Unschooling community and hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!

THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid discussions about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Come and be part of the conversation!

Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

Follow @pamlaricchia on Instagram and Facebook.

Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about navigating relationships and exploring unschooling.

So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

ANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and I’m joined today by my co-host Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia. Hello! 

I have really been enjoying this series reflecting back on 10 years of the podcast. So much has changed and yet the growth and learning continues. The podcast has been important to so many people and it’s always fun to hear how it’s touched them and many times changed the trajectory of their family. Similarly, the podcast has brought many amazing people to join us at the Living Joyfully Network.

It’s such a great place to take the concepts covered in the podcast and dive deeper, to be a part of the conversation. We love that. All three of us are active participants and we’re responding to questions, hosting calls, sharing our journey, learning and growing alongside all of the amazing families there and we would absolutely love for you to join us.

You can find out more information in the show notes or visit livingjoyfully.ca to learn more about joining. And we also have a free trial month, so you can check it out that way as well. 

This week, the question that we’re going to be reflecting on is what still matters? And so Erika, would you like to get us started? 

ERIKA: I would. When thinking about what still matters, I felt like we have to start with relationships. It’s something that I’ve heard you both say from the very beginning. Focus on our relationships with our children because when we start there, everything else falls into place.

If we make independence our focus or academic skills our focus, we lose sight of the unique child in front of us and our relationships can be harmed. When I first came to unschooling, I was pretty preoccupied with the idea of passing skills along to my kids. It just seemed like that would be my most important role, especially since we weren’t putting them into school.

Like how will they get by as functioning adults without these skills? And so I had this desire to make sure they weren’t “falling behind” or that they would be keeping up with the kids who had gone to school. I think it’s a common fear when we’re choosing an alternative path.

But through time and observation, I really have come to believe that we can’t force people to learn anything. And I could see that putting that agenda onto my kids and pushing them to pay attention to this certain thing or pushing them to independently do something that they’re not ready to do. It just caused them to push back against me and that affected our relationship.

And so the work that I do now as a parent has so much more to do with our relationship than anything else, which I think would have surprised younger me. That cultural idea that we have to mold our children into who they should be. But it’s just not about that at all for me anymore.

It’s more about the things we talk about here, like building trust with them by being trustworthy, leaving space for them to learn in their own way, being accountable and making repairs with them if we have any kind of a rift and really being curious about who they are in the moment as unique individuals. And learning facts and skills can come when it’s time. I’ve seen that happen over and over.

I may worry, if someone’s not reading yet or they’re not interested in learning how to tell time. That was a real one for me. Or to tie their shoes. But our children will come across all the things that are the most important to learn because they’re actually important in their lives. And every brain is different. Every person has their own path and those skills come.

Sometimes it even feels kind of magical, but it doesn’t happen by force, at least not with my kids. Learning happens when the context is right and their desire is there. And so by focusing instead on our relationships, we create a space for them to process with us when things come up. We let them know that we’re there for them no matter what. There’s not this expectation that their lives look a certain way. We support them as who they are in each moment.

And I see that focus on that relationship pay off when my teens now come to me to process their fears or their goals or their relationship struggles or anything else. They know that I don’t have this image in mind of them that they’re not living up to. They know that we are all just humans learning, growing on our own paths, but we’re in relationship together.

And I think that the skills they learn doing that are actually so much more valuable than the academic skills. Those relationship skills and the communication skills will serve them for the rest of their lives. So I try to think to myself, as I remember Anna saying so many times, is what I’m about to do going to help my relationship with my child or harm it?

And making the relationship-strengthening choices over and over pays off. It’s like a good north star for me to aim towards. And of course, not perfectly, since that’s not possible, as I’ve talked about before.

PAM: Oh, I love that so much! And you know what, I love how over these three episodes as we’ve been reflecting back through various questions, how much relationships bubble up as part of the things that we’ve learned. Things that have shifted for us and that’s what really still matters. Because that fundamentally, like you said Erika, the learning happens.

The skills and the facts happen. An early realization for me was, well, if they don’t come across it in their life to want to learn it then it wouldn’t have been helpful to have tried to force them to learn it because they wouldn’t have come across a need to know it anyway. So, it was like that little gameplay shift for me. It is okay.

And then number two, just looking back on my own journey, what do I remember of what I learned and aced on the test. And now it’s only when I need it, I will learn that little piece. I’ll brush up again, learning it in the moment. It’s fundamentally stronger as in it makes more of a connection because that’s where I’m learning what I need. That web of learning that you mentioned in an earlier episode, Erika.

That is how the relationship just became fundamental, because that was so much more supportive of our lives and that interdependence of living together. And if I focus there, everything else kind of like takes care of itself. And in that way, people make choices and we help them. And when I focus on the relationship, it puts my energy in the places that matter the most long-term, even now with all my kids as adults. 

ANNA: Yeah. I think what I love about this choice that you made, Erika, about what still matters is the relationship because, I don’t know how to say it because that’s what actually matters years later. Not just when we have kids at home, but when our kids are adults and what kind of relationships we want then.  

We have a lot in our culture happening now about people going no contact and not being in touch with their families. And as someone who works with families and adults and their parents, it’s like, oh, that doesn’t happen there, when they are all adults. That doesn’t happen in isolation, over one or two events. That happens over years of not being heard or listened to. And I know these parents, because I’m working with them too. These adult parents that are now in their sixties to eighties, they were doing what they thought was best. They were trying to make sure their kids would be independent adults. They were trying to help them. But it caused harm.

They didn’t have these nuanced discussions that we’re able to have in a community of people who are picking apart these ideas. And I think, oh, that’s such a big difference in this lifestyle. Pam and I both have adult children, Erika’s kids are teenagers, but ours are well into their adulthood and we still enjoy each other. We still want to hang out and we still get the calls and we still do the processing and we are still a part of each other’s lives in different ways.

It looks different for all the different kids that we have because they all have different personalities, but it’s there, that foundation, that attending to the relationship for all those years. We’re still doing it, and it still has so much meaning in our lives. 

There’s just something about that. That’s really poetic and beautiful when you think about this life and these choices.

PAM: Yes, I love that. And I think it leads nicely into what I wanted to talk about here. And that’s the paradigm shifting idea that children are whole and capable people right now, not like adults in training.

Then this was one of my earliest paradigm shifts on the journey. And I do think it still matters, so, so much.

And this idea brings together so many pieces that we’ve been talking about this month. When people first hear this, I feel like they often discount it, right? No, children aren’t whole, children aren’t capable.

I can just hear and some people have said, there’s just so much about life that kids don’t know. Or they can’t feed and clothe themselves. They couldn’t live on their own, that whole independence agenda. So, that’s the picture, right?

They need to train to be an adult, right? I can’t help but think about how that whole agenda just comes in there. And we seem to constantly be looking at children, I think, and just comparing them to adults. Seeing all those missing bits, that must mean they aren’t whole, that must mean they aren’t capable. But this was a piece that really locked into place for me. They are not adults, right?

They are whole and capable of being the two-year-old that they are, the eight-year-old, the 15-year-old. And in my experience, our worlds absolutely are forever changed when we can take off those adult tinted glasses and join them as who they are in this moment, right? So when we can do that, we start to see these whole children as our guides.

We start to see them making choices that make so much sense when we look at that through their eyes. They always made sense, but now with our clearer vision, we’re seeing it. It’s like, oh, I never understood why they did that. I thought I had to fix that. I kept trying to tell them to do it this other way. But when we can take off that lens and just start looking at them, we see those choices.

We see glimpses of how capable they are of understanding themselves, of saying no for reasons that make sense to them. And even seeing us and sensing our energy, I think that’s something that is kind of a surprise for us as we start noticing how much our kids can be impacted by our energy. And they can sense that and incorporate that.

They are capable of seeing, understanding, and incorporating that. And spoiler alert, in my experience, we soon find that we don’t even need that age distinction. I think that can be part of the journey, helping to see, oh yeah, they’re two-years-old.

But then it’s not like what can your two-year-old do? Or what should your two-year-old be able to do? What should your eight-year-old know? You realize that, oh yeah, that again has really no value. It’s really, who is this person? What do they want to be doing? What are their interests? That becomes the lens. It just really helps us recognize that they are whole and capable human beings right now, full stop, at any and every age.

And then, you always want to remember that doesn’t mean that they’re always happy and easygoing. It means that they’re living a rich and meaningful human life. There are always ups and downs and frustrations and hard things.

And so often people, well, if they get to choose what they do, they’ll never choose to do hard things. How will they learn? All those pieces that you start to recognize when you’re watching your own kids that, oh, that’s not true.

We really will choose to do the things we want to do, even if they’re challenging, even if they’re frustrating. And I think this also is when we really start to fundamentally understand in our bones that people are different, as we’ve talked about in the last episode. Because that’s the next lens, I think, that we can remove after our adult-tinted ones come off.

The one that has us viewing their choices and behavior through the lens of what we would do in similar circumstances. Okay, so yes, we keep going and going because it’s all connected. It’s all woven together. But I think you can see why I think this idea about children and being in relationship with them still really matters all these years.

ANNA: Yes, I thought they were very nicely connected. Very nicely connected and definitely still matters. And I love that age piece that you pulled out, how that falls away, because it’s kind of ridiculous.

And yet you could do it in the same way with “adults”, well, you’re 30, so you should do this. You’re 45, you should know how to do this. But it’s like, who’s that person? And so I love when we can just let all of those external pieces fade away and just look at the person in front of us. What excites them? What lights them up? What do they want to do? What do they find hard? What do they want help with? What do they need? 

I think when you, like you’re saying, take off those glasses, because I don’t know that we see them in all of their beauty and complexity when we have on those lenses that are trying to put them in a box.

It’s like okay, have they done this? Have they checked this? Are they doing this? Are they going to do that? Are they going to know how to do this? Again, all those things are designed to separate us. But gosh, when you just, my vision is just like being on the floor to just be with those kids and just watch the way their brains work. And I get so lit up on the network when people are talking about their kids. Anyone on the network will know, I get so excited about all the kids.

And I just love them all so much because we have this wide range of just amazing kids that say the most incredible things. And that’s because somebody’s listening, right? It’s like these parents are listening and then bringing it to us with these incredible ideas and stories that they share.

And Erika has teens right now who are just deep and feeling things and thinking about hard ideas and all of these pieces. And it’s like, gosh, we can miss that. If we just have that adult lens on and we’re trying to put them into boxes.

And so, absolutely one of the gifts of this life is really that understanding that they are just full, capable human beings in front of us from the start. I love that, Pam.

ERIKA: Oh, I love it so much. It was making me think of a couple of things.

One was my experience being a child. I do have memories of being a young child and my mind was rich and deep and I had all sorts of understandings about the world and about how people should treat each other. And I had my convictions and it was not like me at five was a blank slate ready to just learn from the adults around me. I knew a lot even then and, and I just can picture what my mind has felt like every step of the way and every step of the way it’s me. It was me then and it’s me now.

And so I don’t think there’s any sort of magic in becoming an adult. I think that if we can realize that our children are whole from the very beginning and that they know who they are from the very beginning, it’s just, it’s so much richer. And then I also think that if we’re viewing everything in that adult lens of  when you’re allowed to do things or when you will be able to do things or when you mature enough. Or telling them these things you’re thinking about now are just nonsense and not important. It leads to this cultural feeling for the kids of, I just can’t wait to be an adult so that I could finally do what I want to do. 

I remember that feeling in school of like, we’re just waiting. School was just waiting to be done and to finally get to live our lives and finally be an adult who gets to make choices. 

And so I just love that we can question that with our families and just be like, you know what, you’re a human right now, you are a person. And our culture is set up to not allow them access to every single thing at that age. But having a parent who takes them seriously and listens to their thoughts and ideas just from the beginning, I think it just creates such a different experience for them growing up.

ANNA: Right. I mean, there’s so much that we can facilitate. I do think and will stand by that I think that kids are the most marginalized group in the world. They’re the largest group that is marginalized in that way.

And I think it’s so powerful to know they do have this inside of them and they do know and with agency can make these amazing decisions. And so because of the way our culture is set up, that does put us in that role of facilitating to help them do that. 

I love how you shared with me before, Erika, these insights you’ve had from being very young. I don’t have a ton of memories from childhood. And so I’m fascinated by them when we’ve talked about them, because you had such a clear vision of how you were feeling and thinking. And I’m like, yes, intuitively, I know this and could see it in my own kids, but it was really cool to talk to you about those pieces.

I do have one memory from middle school. I remember things were really hard and it was just, middle school was very tough. And I remember just thinking, I’m going to become an adult and I’m going to spend the rest of my life advocating for children.  I remember that thought so, so clearly.

And honestly, it has driven me ever since. And that is why I’m still doing the work that I’m doing because children have so much to say and they’re just amazing. And anyway, so yeah, I just, I love that.

But so, I’m going to go on to mine and what I’m going to talk about is something that I think can both be exciting and it can also infuriate people. And, and we’ve touched on it a little bit over the month, but it’s that there’s no one right way. There’s no perfect path.

There’s no one size fits all. And I think when people are first looking at unschooling, they do want the playbook, right? They wonder, what should I do? How do I do this right? And I’m going to be the best unschooler. That’s what I want to do.

And it makes sense. These were the type of questions school encouraged us to focus on. There was an answer, the answer, and we needed to get the answer. And often even show that our work to get the answer was the same, which is insane to me. They do not understand people are different. That’s how we succeed in that environment though.

So, at first it can feel a little scary to hear that there isn’t an answer and that there isn’t one path, but the flip side of that is it can be so liberating and sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly it clicks and it just all makes sense. 

Last week when we talked about ‘people are different’, that’s really the root of why there isn’t one path. We’re all so different, how we learn, how we want to engage in the world, what we prioritize, what lights us up.

It’s all so unique to who we are and it adds this amazing color to our personal journey. But within that, it can be really beautiful to share the journey with people who are intentional about their relationships, who value connection above product, who are curious and know deep down there are these other paths that we can take. That feels really energizing to me.

And as Pam mentioned at the beginning of the month, we do not come here as experts with the answer. We don’t believe there is an answer. We are fellow explorers who enjoy teasing out the nuances and asking the tough questions of ourselves, of others, of the world. Growing beyond old patterns and expectations.

And I think those are just a few of the things waiting for people when they step off that treadmill of the one right way that our culture can present and they start to dig a little bit deeper. I feel like that’s one cool side effect of choosing this path. We’ve talked about it before as the window. People may come to it as an alternative to school because maybe school isn’t working for their child in this moment.

But this whole world of questioning and exploration has opened up all the things we thought of as a given or a ‘have to’ come into question. And the thing is, we may choose to hold on to some of them and we may let others go, but the difference is coming from a place of choice. Everything is a choice.

And what’s interesting is that was one of the first essays that I wrote. Gosh, it’s probably been 20 years ago, but it was called, “Everything is a Choice” and it can also ruffle some feathers. But I find it to be the most empowering understanding because we always have a choice. There isn’t one way to do anything. And we can choose how we move through these different situations, whether it’s just the energy we bring to it or the actual choices that we’re making.

And so I’m feeling like I could go off on a tangent here about so many like black and white ideas that don’t serve us. So, I’m going to stop. But the idea that there isn’t one right way is really the cornerstone of the work that the three of us do together and the environment that we’ve cultivated on the network. So, I feel like this is one that still matters and will always matter.

PAM: Yeah, so much like there is not one right way. And it is so hard for people wrap their head around it. And it does it weave into ‘people are different’ so closely. I like to add on the end, there’s a right way for you. 

ANNA: Yes, there’s a right way for me, in this moment.

PAM: That’s exactly where I was going, right now. Because that can change over time, too. It’s all about me. Right? And how am I in this moment? What am I wanting to put on my plate? What choices do I want to make? And in this context of everybody around me, of my own capacity, mood, how tired am I?

All the things will go into the choice that I make. And yeah, I remember early conversations about that. What do you mean everything is a choice? Like, I don’t have a choice about this and this and that. It’s just fascinating to think about and absolutely that completely still matters.

It’s just such a huge paradigm shift and bringing it into your days. No matter the age of anyone involved, it just brings the choice back to ourselves.

ERIKA: Yeah. Beautiful. I do think it is so personality driven, too. I think some people have a much easier time with this concept than others. And I feel like when I notice myself thinking, well, that’s not right. It’s just fun then now to be like, what do I mean by that?

What do I think is right? And so, yeah, it’s one of those exploding my brain kind of realizations that’s happened along the unschooling journey. But I feel like if we follow the whole thread of a choice and then the result and all of that, we may have a belief culturally that if we did choose correctly, then we are guaranteed a certain result.

And so realizing through observation that is not in any way true, it then releases some of the pressure around all of those earlier choices. Just because I did what society said was correct on steps ABC doesn’t mean I’m going to get to that end result of D that that they’re promising. And I think, after I was in school, I also spent a brief time teaching in school.

And I think when I was teaching high school was one of the times when I realized this promise that they’ve made to these children is not a real thing. I think it’s really doing a disservice to young people to say, if you do this, this, this, I mean, it’s the longest list of expectations. If you do all of this, then you will be successful.

And that’s just not how life works. And so let’s just take the pressure off of those choices and realize that there isn’t a way to guarantee any kind of result. And why not try to aim for a result that fits us better, rather than just trying to be on this kind of straight and narrow path that they say will get us to our destination.

And so if we observe the world and all the people in it, we can see there are so many different ways to live a good life. And there’s so many different paths that can get you to where you’re going. And so, it’s all about ‘people are different’.

It’s all about there’s no one right way. I love thinking about these things.

PAM: And bringing the mistakes that we’ve been talking about this month, your path can change your destination. That’s the other super cool thing. I’ve taken like three more steps, my own personal ABC, and now E is looking a little off. I don’t want to go in that direction. I want E minus or something, right? And that’s totally okay, that I’m learning a little bit more each time.

And just moving through life that way, rather than on a set path. And then, even people who have taken the path and ended up where society said, Oh, you’ve made it. And then they’re like, is this even where I want to be? You know what I mean? 

There’s just so much to consider and it really is that one right path really just isn’t a useful measure or direction to take, because it really just doesn’t align with who we are even if we take it and it works perfectly, it may not feel good. 

ANNA:  I really love that piece you said that it’s a disservice. Really it is a disservice to all of these amazing capable children that are trying to then grow and figure out what they want to do with their lives because there isn’t one path. 

There’s this other thought that I had about that. I think we’ve all been there. I was not a teacher, but I’ve been around the kids a lot in my life, and at some point we’ve all heard or thought, why do I have to learn this? What is the purpose of this? They’re asking those questions and are systematically shut down. And those are fair questions.

Why do I need to be doing this? What is the purpose? I remember asking those questions because that’s just how my brain works. And would just be told, but you’re going to get this thing. If you keep doing this thing that makes no sense to you now, then you’re going to get this other thing. And that’s not how it happened.

And even David did all the things on paper, it looked a lot like that, he did this, did the thing, got the degree, got the job in the degree, did all of it. It served a purpose. And then he realized, this is not where I want to be.

I just wish we could have more conversations with kids, unschooled or not unschooled, just so they could just hear more about the millions of different ways there are to be in the world and to be a quote, success, to live a life that feels rich and enjoyable and sustainable. I think those are the conversations that we’re missing in our culture because we’re so attached to that one right path.

I think that’s why letting go of this one right path piece is so huge. And you just see people really lighting up because they realized that pursuit of the one right path didn’t serve them either.

ERIKA: Yeah. And maybe talking to successful adults about what are the things that make you happy and see if it’s the job or if it’s something totally different, which I would imagine it probably is.

PAM: And that reminds me, the one right path, I think, became real challenging. It was a recent month in the network. And we’ve been talking about putting everything on the table, right?

It can feel so scary up front, to offer even the possibility that there are other paths, right, that there are other possibilities, that there are other choices. Scary to even open up the conversation to creative ways one might make things work. It can feel so challenging. I was just struck by what you said, Anna, about opening up this conversation, whether or not kids are in school, right, to actually take the time to talk about the possibilities, to talk about how people are feeling about what choices or what’s even just going on in their life right now.

And it goes back to the kids are capable. Kids are capable of so much. You don’t just have to tell them to just follow this path. Kids are capable of understanding, and often expressing what’s not working for them about the thing.

And just opening up those conversations, even in the networks I’m listening to. I actually opened up a conversation and was uncomfortable about it. Because I really wanted it to work out this way. But then I learned so much.

And we made it so much better for them as well. Just opening up the conversation can feel hard, because you feel like you might be opening yourself up to having to defend but no, really, your mind is being opened.

So often, there are so many possibilities that are workable, but we don’t see when we’re just looking at that one path, right?

ANNA: Right! Okay, one last thing. And then I know we’re going over, but it’s just what you just said really sparked something. I think it is scary for people to put everything on the table.  Because what if we tell kids, there’s all these options, and they don’t make “the” choice. But some of them will still make that choice, but they will do it out of a choice. They’ll be like, this is what I want to do.

And they will be successful on that path in whatever that looks like for them, because they want to be here. But then the kids that want to choose differently are going to find their unique path that fills them. And for me, I’ve always said this, our world is so much better served by people choosing the path that they want and living in alignment in that way.

Because then we get the rich skills and all of the different brains coming at it in a way that just is so much richer than forcing people. So that if you don’t fit on that path, but yet there you are, you feel bad about yourself, right? You’re questioning, why am I not okay? Why is this not working? This is the path. Why does it feel so bad? This is what I’m supposed to be doing.

Instead, that person may be an artist that’s supposed to be over here changing the world in this other way. And we lose that, we lose those colors, we lose that richness. So, now I’m excited about how I can make sure we’re all having this conversation?

PAM: Yes, I think it’s so, so important. Me too. Me too.

ANNA: I just want to thank you both so much. I feel like these reflections and just sharing these last few episodes, thinking about these last 10 years, and all of our journeys has just been so rich, and has felt important to me. So I hope that other people enjoyed it as well.

And to everyone who’s listening or watching, I just really appreciate you joining us for these conversations. We really have such a good time. And we do invite you to join us at the Living Joyfully Network.

As we mentioned in the last episodes, we have a free trial month, so you can check it out. I think that you’ll see that these are the conversations that we enjoy. It’s okay to be a lurker to just kind of check it out.

We have a lot of resources you can dig into if you have questions about this lifestyle and the different pieces about it and what it can look like in your family. And we also love the conversation. It’s just a really fun place.

I do hope you’ll check it out. And you can learn more about that by clicking on the link in the show notes or going to our website livingjoyfully.ca and click on Network in the menu. Thank you both so much and just wishing everyone a beautiful day.

Bye. 

Bye.